General/Other - Ferra/Torr [Pre-patch] KP2 buff/nerf thread

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

So with the new Kombat Pack around the corner I think its about time to start speculating
@MadeFromMetal @Doombawkz @Forr @Barrogh @Shade667 @Wetdoba @Grr @cR Biohazard

What would you like to see fixed for the character? Frame data corrections are a given.

Buffs I would like to see
* extend armour on Tuck and Trample a bit, I get bodied by crossups constantly and it's pretty frustrating

* An EX boss toss for 18% that leaves them in place. Not a restand, but ferra just doesnt kick them full screen. Like she'll stab twice and slide down them and rush back to Torr. Or alternatively scratch the extra damage and placement control and let Torr move when Ferra is in the air.

* Vicious EX command grab should juggle, it's by far the worst of the three. EX command grabs in Lackey and Ruthless are hard knockdowns and you can pick which side you throw. Little Kutter isn't a hard knockdown so they are free to create space (stupid how the only command grab that keeps them within our range they are free get out of, and the other two send them fullscreen), and it only does 1% more than the other variations.

* fix Ferra returning to Torr, in between rounds has been buggy. In fact lets just remove the marathon sprints that Ferra does off Torr, just have her stand near him like she does in Lackey till he gets up.

* add at least one tick throw from a combo, played right they have fantastic pressure, but being able to b12xxdbf1 would be god like and just melt people minds

* I feel like some characters can easily skirt by the hit box on ferra toss, idk if its their jump animations or something. But I've felt that the hitbox is inconsistent

* there's no way this will happen, but d2 in ruthless or vicious should use ferra to poke them out of the air. It doesn't even need to be that fast, like 11 frames minimum. Lackey can keep the long one because they already have bd2 as a decent uppercut.

Nerfs (just to be fair)
* maybe make one or two strings unsafe (-10 or more) its very easy to stay safe with any string cancelled into ferra toss, But from memory they only have one string that is more than -10 on block (b3, 2+4 is -22)

 

[MadeFromMetal]

There's only one thing I TRULY want.

I want Lackey roll to have the whiff/hit recovery of Reptile's dash.

Luxury buffs (reversions) include

4,2+4 going full screen in R/V

And Boss Toss to do damage like when the game came out.

And if they wanted Christmas to come, f3 with a little faster startup.

Honestly though, I'm not sure we NEED anything.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

There's only one thing I TRULY want.

I want Lackey roll to have the whiff/hit recovery of Reptile's dash.

Luxury buffs (reversions) include

4,2+4 going full screen in R/V

And Boss Toss to do damage like when the game came out.

And if they wanted Christmas to come, f3 with a little faster startup.

Honestly though, I'm not sure we NEED anything.

Agreed, I don't play Lackey (I know I should) so I'm not sure what buffs he needs, but the roll is a good one. All the other slide moves have lightening quick recovery, they are used as movement tools half the time they are used.

I think 4, 2+4 is good, mostly because it's plus. What do you think of the uppercut buff for R/V. I mean its not like they don't already have different normals already.

 

[Shade667]

First off im honoured to be tagged alongside such prestigious titles.

Id like a universal defensive buff. FT's defense in all but lackey isnt very good. A better d2 would certainly help that. Id like Meterburning after doing EX tuck and trample to do something 'more'. 20% for 2 bars is hardly worth it.
Ferra toss not losing her hitbox in a trade probably wont happen, though itd be great. Buffing 1,1,2+4 to be useful anywhere but the corner would be nice.

The most outrageous thing I can think of is them replacing F2 with something else and making F2 a special move. Thatd be sick. And Id maybe like to see lackeys b2 be a little faster.

But truthfully I dont see them even touching FT.

 

[Wigy]

He needs some tick grabs, jesus fuck. Erron has like 129 ticks f/T has only ones off his pokes.

B2 sped up in all variations.

Uppercut completely reworked. It has no use.

Maybe 2 hits of armour on roll or reduced whiff recovery as certain matchups for lacky, getting in is a rediculous mission.

Not having all your moves launch them into places where u can't do shit would be nice

 

[MadeFromMetal]

What do you think of the uppercut buff for R/V.

Honestly, I've grown so accustomed to not using it....I don't even think of it as a normal. Lol. A d2 buff would be welcomed. Or at least make it 21% instead of 14%. That way if someone gets caught with it, it's worth it.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

First off im honoured to be tagged alongside such prestigious titles.

Id like a universal defensive buff. FT's defense in all but lackey isnt very good. A better d2 would certainly help that. Id like Meterburning after doing EX tuck and trample to do something 'more'. 20% for 2 bars is hardly worth it.
Ferra toss not losing her hitbox in a trade probably wont happen, though itd be great. Buffing 1,1,2+4 to be useful anywhere but the corner would be nice.

The most outrageous thing I can think of is them replacing F2 with something else and making F2 a special move. Thatd be sick. And Id maybe like to see lackeys b2 be a little faster.

But truthfully I dont see them even touching FT.

I was just going through the big threads and tagging those who posted most.

 

[DarkSomethinG]

for lackey only 2 buffs are needed

much needed(and fair) buff:
1)an antiair grab,maybe with a bonus of converting into a combo in the ex version.

luxury buff:
2)toryuken able to meter burn(just like goro's punchwalk).

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Maybe we just haven't found it but some secret brutalities would be cool too

 

[Shade667]

Thats not a buff though lol

 

[dennycascade]

Make ruthless/vicious d1 8 frames startup and -2 on block (down from 10 and -1)
Make f3 13 frames startup and give it a better vertical hitbox
Make b121 -1 on block (down from -3, still gap when cancelled into toss)
Make b121 +23 on hit (up from +19)
Alter the cancel data for b1 so it can tick throw with the ruthless/lackey 11f grab
Make ferra return a TAD bit faster when torr is knocked down
Make all command grabs a bit longer knockdown (+16ish up from +9)
Make ferra not lose her hitbox when torr gets hit (seriously, the idea of ferra is to win projectile trades)
Make tuck-n-trample have its armor active for 10 frames longer
Make Boulder roll go under high projectiles
Give Up Torr startup immunity to jump normals and improve its hitbox/hurtbox
Change command grab input to db1 (trying to use this as a reversal has fucked me over too many times)
Make f32 special cancelable (no tick throws and doesn't jail into toss or bowl girl)

With these little buffs and frame data improvements, F/T would be SOLID A+. This buff list looks similar to what reptile, kotal and takeda got in the last patch, a few fundamental changes, and some better frame data. Does this look realistic to anyone?

 

[MadeFromMetal]

Almost forgot the one that pisses me off most.

Let Torr keep Ferra when the opponent uses breaker.

 

[imblackjames]

I'll give an idea for each of them just because i like symmetry.

Vicious:
the more buttons u press during the command grab the more damage you do but the further away it knocks the opponent away with less hit advantage, the less buttons the less damage but closer it leaves u with more hit advantage so u can keep pressure

Ruthless:
make PnG cancels easier (in general) but specifically off b121 so it's easier to connect the f2 regardless of distance.

Lackey:
speed up b2 so that jip b2 becomes a true block string.

In general:
make 112+4 a true launcher. even if it's just enough where we can do b1212 itd be useful as a punish and give more corner carry.

 

[dennycascade]

I'll give an idea for each of them just because i like symmetry.

Vicious:
the more buttons u press during the command grab the more damage you do but the further away it knocks the opponent away with less hit advantage, the less buttons the less damage but closer it leaves u with more hit advantage so u can keep pressure

Ruthless:
make PnG cancels easier (in general) but specifically off b121 so it's easier to connect the f2 regardless of distance.

Lackey:
speed up b2 so that jip b2 becomes a true block string.

In general:
make 112+4 a true launcher. even if it's just enough where we can do b1212 itd be useful as a punish and give more corner carry.

I like these ideas, I think they should just alter the hit reaction to b121 so it doesn't knock them out of f2's reach after the PnG cancel. I kind of disagree with the idea of speeding up lackey's b2 that much because that would make it a non-fuzzyable 50/50 off the jump-in, which it's not really intended to be. I could be wrong, but I think b2 is slow and reactable because the mixup is supposed to be off of staggering with b23 or going for the full string which will catch your opponent trying to call your bluff and pressing buttons. It's a really strong stagger imo, so i don't think it should be 2 mixups in one tbh. Psh, you know what lackey need it let's just roll with it lol

 

[imblackjames]

I like these ideas, I think they should just alter the hit reaction to b121 so it doesn't knock them out of f2's reach after the PnG cancel. I kind of disagree with the idea of speeding up lackey's b2 that much because that would make it a non-fuzzyable 50/50 off the jump-in, which it's not really intended to be. I could be wrong, but I think b2 is slow and reactable because the mixup is supposed to be off of staggering with b23 or going for the full string which will catch your opponent trying to call your bluff and pressing buttons. It's a really strong stagger imo, so i don't think it should be 2 mixups in one tbh. Psh, you know what lackey need it let's just roll with it lol

i could be remembering it wrong but if they block everything but the end of the string don't they go flying away? i just get sick of being armored after the jip lol

 

[Shade667]

Make ruthless/vicious d1 8 frames startup and -2 on block (down from 10 and -1)
Make f3 13 frames startup and give it a better vertical hitbox
Make b121 -1 on block (down from -3, still gap when cancelled into toss)
Make b121 +23 on hit (up from +19)
Alter the cancel data for b1 so it can tick throw with the ruthless/lackey 11f grab
Make ferra return a TAD bit faster when torr is knocked down
Make all command grabs a bit longer knockdown (+16ish up from +9)
Make ferra not lose her hitbox when torr gets hit (seriously, the idea of ferra is to win projectile trades)
Make tuck-n-trample have its armor active for 10 frames longer
Make Boulder roll go under high projectiles
Give Up Torr startup immunity to jump normals and improve its hitbox/hurtbox
Change command grab input to db1 (trying to use this as a reversal has fucked me over too many times)
Make f32 special cancelable (no tick throws and doesn't jail into toss or bowl girl)

With these little buffs and frame data improvements, F/T would be SOLID A+. This buff list looks similar to what reptile, kotal and takeda got in the last patch, a few fundamental changes, and some better frame data. Does this look realistic to anyone?

If this happened id never complain about losing a match with FT again.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

I'm not convinced that F/T is bad enough that we even need buffs. Most likely we are in that space where we are slightly below average, but close enough to balanced that we are just ignored.

A true tick throw like Jason or Goro have would be filthy. I've been playing both those characters lately and fucking love those tick throws. Maybe even too good for F/T. We do actually have tick throws off of things like d1 or d3 on block, but I can't confirm that shit so I never even use it. The closest thing we have to a true tick throw is JIK, DBF1, and I think even that can be tech rolled on block. I like the option mentioned above of B12 xx DBF1.

Removing Ruthless/Vicious gap in B2, 3, 2+4 at close range.

I forgot about 4, 2+4 until Metal mentioned it above. That should get something, dunno what, it just needs to be useful somehow, because it is a neat little move.

I also agree that Lackey's Roll could be improved. The frames feel more risky than they're worth in most situations. It is safe at max distance but still sort of meh.

Other luxury buffs have been mentioned in the forum multiple times: An above-head AA like Goro, Ferra keeping her hitbox, possibly an EX Boss Toss, whatever that might mean (hit of armor, more damage), Command Grab having better recovery/not throwing opponent so far. I doubt we're getting a new move. That seems like special treatment that only a few characters like Kano have gotten.

A Surface-to-Air grab like Kotal would be really cool. Seems like something Torr would do--grab a jumping bean out of the air and mash them into the fucking dirt.

 

[joeldm]

Honestly, I've grown so accustomed to not using it....I don't even think of it as a normal. Lol. A d2 buff would be welcomed. Or at least make it 21% instead of 14%. That way if someone gets caught with it, it's worth it.

I miss D2 as aa but I also got used to not use it. D2 use as aa is risky.
Since D2 is so slow, so I could have a recovery more hit to make up for the slowness.
I think B1 should get buff, it could have higher priority against jumping.

 

[Shade667]

I use charge in lackey alot to eat projectiles at full screen, but ive found that for alot of character they recover before i even reach them. Itd be nice to cancel lackeys charge like grundy's walking corpse in injustice, so that I can eat a projectile and then advance half screen safely. It wouldnt be that bad, as we could still keep the start up time of charge, so its not like grundy walking corpse cancelling from full screen.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

I use D2 in Lackey's cornered combo: njp, f3, f2, d2, d1 xx dbf1. Other than that, yeah, it blows. Standing 4 is better AA.

 

[stamatis]

Just make the overhead faster.

 

[Doombawkz]

First off im honoured to be tagged alongside such prestigious titles.

Welcome to the big leagues.

Want to know what would make F/T solid A+?
Safe on block charge
Slightly better recovery on roll, or a better hitbox
Less recovery on bowl girl

Everything else is gravy, honestly thats all we need.

 

[Buiu]

just give less pushback on b121 to link into f2 consistent

speed up a bit the b2, specially lackey


this and a good AA,


man F/T need ANY good Ant air.


good jip like sz just make a party on you


thats all

 

[Wetdoba]

Just make the overhead faster.

I dont play FT for 50-50s, the overhead is fine as is, it still low crushes

 

[Wetdoba]

This character doesnt need a lot, just a few good changes will make all the difference.

First and foremost, we need a consistant and reliable anti air for no meter. I think the stances with Ferra should get an U1 normal like Goros where Ferra does the D1 stab angled upwards if she is on Torrs back, then you can confirm into F2 afterwards. Im sorry but if we are the biggest and slowest character in the game, you shouldnt be able to just jump in for free. Lackey should just have normal Torryuken have a slightly more verticle hitbox and be immune to air normals like Kotals air grab and the likes.

That is without a doubt the priority buff FT needs. After that there are only a few changes I would make that would make all the difference for Lackey and Vicious to make them truely viable like Ruthless is now.

Lackey: Roll has less whiff recovery, slightly longer active frames for trip guarding, and goes under high projectiles.

Lackey is suppose to give up the space control options Ferra has for increased mobility, but the mobility in Lackey is pretty much the same right now because rolls recovery sucks and charge is too slow to use as a movement option. This and torryuken having priority over jump ins is probably all Lackey needs (other than no more grab immunity on fully grounded attacks, but thats not going to happen). Bonus is the Grundy walking corpse idea ^^^

Vicious: Delayed MB Boss Toss that can be confirmned on hit. Vicious has no use for meter right now besides breaker and the occasional armor, the damage on boss toss got nerfed, so let us get the damage we need from meter. Also this needs to be a brutal where Ferra takes your eyes, I think we can all agree on that. Maybe it adds 4% to total out at 20% raw?


Universal:

Ferra comes back more consistantly.

4 2+4 goes full screen again.

Ferra doesnt lose hitbox if Torr is hit.

Backdash to match the speed and distance of forward dash. (Helps Vicious be able to play keep away better and helps Lackey mobility. Right now backdash combined with our huge hurtbox makes it practically useless)

Done. Perfect character after that