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General/Other - Kotal Kahn Post Patch Kotal

Slavaslave

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
Well guys, I have tried and tried to see the positive aspect of this patch, but a week in I just can't anymore. B1 did not make kotal good, but it was the tool that enforced his presence on the offensive. Without b1 114xxairgrab seems worthless, anyone with a 8 frame poke just mashes poke out of it and worst case eats a d1 or d4. as Sun God I have lost the threat of a tick throw in my main offensive stagger string, and lets be honest f1/f1b2/f12 can barely be considered a stagger string. F1 is reactable and there no options to stagger it other than another f1 or a poke, both easily blockable, or you can simply apply any of the 7/8 frame pokes the cast members have. f12 is maybe the best thing that has come from this patch as it create spacing, but it cannot be staggered into anything other than a poke, which once again is easily dealt with. with f1b2 punishable by almost everyone on reaction IDK what to do on offense anymore. At least b1 had the threat of the 22 finish, now theres zero reason to hold block after a f1 stagger. I can't backdash and punish, I can't jump back and punish, and I can't jump over and punish.

B32 is a consolation prize that adds up to being about as useful as a wet towel. The +10 is so situational and I have yet to even guarantee a f1 in lab. It can be low profiled, poked out of, or armored on reaction at range. Even when I do land a poke in I have 3 options: b1, f1, or b3 into more pressure. I b1 and get low profiled, I f1 and once again I am in the weird useless stagger string that gives me no real options. b3 leads once again to that +2 situation that I cannot do anything with.

Maybe I am being emo about all this, but Kotal feels crippled. In the new footsie based MKX I thought he would be king, but so far I still don't see it. For one, they STILL havent fixed hit box issues against goro and F/T. Secondly you have no reason to fear Kotal pressure if you have a fast poke. Most people these days are reacting with backdash or pokes to EX pizza, and the changes in it's frames takes away my ability to apply any pressure off of a run in when I do manage to connect it on block.

What am I missing? I wan't this character to feel whole again, but he is a empty husk of the emperor he used to be.
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
all i'm gonna say is if you have a 6 frame poke that lets you jail most of your combo starters being plus 1 for no meter is a pretty big deal and 1,1,4 air grab is way more plus
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
114 air throw has become the best offensive string now for sun god, exactly because people press buttons. EX sun choke is nearly guaranteed. For other variations, your reward is not much. A cancel into a sword, a cancel into totem. Pretty much it.

You mention you thinking footsies would make him king but you're disappointed because he can't pressure;

Footsies is not pressure. Footsies is your forward walkspeed, your F1B2, your B1 when people block, your D4, etc.

Finish F12, check people who button mash after D4 with F2, use your armour after 114 and make them respect your pokes. If you hit a poke after 114 air throw, you get a guaranteed poke and B1, even a second 114 air throw depending on where you are. Use those to further pressure and tick throw.
 
Slavaslave

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
Okay I see what you are saying. I've always had a problem being patient. I've definitely been finishing f12, like I mention it is probably the best thing Kotal got this patch. I don't agree with your assessment of 114 though, what you're saying is my best offensive string is a high starting frame trap that requires a bar to guarantee 20% off of it.

You're right footsie is not pressure. I guess I am asking for too much to get good footsie tools as well as pressure, but I cannot manage to keep advantage, or stay on the offensive post patch.
 
L

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
Slavaslave said:
Okay I see what you are saying. I've always had a problem being patient. I've definitely been finishing f12, like I mention it is probably the best thing Kotal got this patch. I don't agree with your assessment of 114 though, what you're saying is my best offensive string is a high starting frame trap that requires a bar to guarantee 20% off of it.

You're right footsie is not pressure. I guess I am asking for too much to get good footsie tools as well as pressure, but I cannot manage to keep advantage, or stay on the offensive post patch.
Click to expand...
I want to discuss your last point first. The concept of footsie versus pressure requires two different mindsets, so many times the same moves don't perform both functions well.

Footsies are when you are using a combination of movement and a strike attack at its maximum distance in order to hit your opponent in space where it is extremely difficult to hit you back (i.e. d+4 at max range). You're not trying to apply pressure when you are engaged in footsies. It has nothing to do with frame advantage at all. You're actually trying to get your opponent to overextend by whiffing a move after you've done something and it allows you to whiff punish with f+2, f+1,2, etc.


Pressure, or utilizing frame advantage to keep an opponent pinned down. If you're able to maintain frame advantage with very little risk (i.e. old b+1), then pressure games devolve into meter management because you're just waiting to armor through stuff instead of finding holes where you could risk letting go of block in order to properly interrupt a high attack string.

Example: 1,1,4 on block for us is still really great. You can use it after a lot of stuff to where even though your opponent could let go of block after blocking (jump in attack), but they're not going to unless they make a hard read on you. It's too risky because 1,1,4 will eat up anything other than neutral ducking and give you a high damaging combo opportunity. So, they block the string and you get your frame advantage. Now with Sun God, you still have choices even though b+1 is high. They can't beat your d+4 (it will also low profile some armor moves for you), and people can barely interrupt f+1 if you really want to use a mid. With d+4 if they block low, you get a tick throw set up... on hit you could cancel into EX Sunstone to at worst maintain frame advantage. You're even okay on hit if you cancelled into the SGC and it whiffs. No harm done.

With f+1,2 you're at -1 on block, so you could EX SGC their retailation attempt. You could also d+4 because it's so fast, that most people don't have an 8 frame mid which can contend with you (even Kotal can't beat himself when this is done to him outside of EX parry). That loops you back around to d+4 on hit or block.


Remember, b+3,2 gives you frame advantage on block and has a huge hit box. So if you find yourself at distance, it's definitely a great tool which moves you back up close AND gives you frame advantage on block. It's definitely going to be a work horse. f+1,2 as explained above doesn't give you frame advantage on paper, but it has the potential to be very rewarding on block as well. I'm sure you'll find your way the longer we play with the new patch :)



((Small Soapbox, so you can skip reading this:
In how the game is now, b+1,1,2 > EX Sunstone starting off with a mid is too good and couldn't continue like we had it. You'd make almost every character spend two bars to break of pressure that builds TONS of meter for you, because if they only break out using one bar... you've dealt more damage in chip damage and them eating the EX Sunstone in armor than what they get for "guessing right". Plus, on top of it... b+1 > EX SGC connects on hit or block. If it was still mid, there wouldn't be anything else to do. You'd just build meter, and b+1 > EX SGC. Done. That would have been the whole gameplan. Perfect flowchart material))


((Small Soapbox, so you can skip reading this:
In how the game is now, b+1,1,2 > EX Sunstone starting off with a mid is too good and couldn't continue like we had it. You'd make almost every character spend two bars to break of pressure that builds TONS of meter for you, because if they only break out using one bar... you've dealt more damage in chip damage and them eating the EX Sunstone in armor than what they get for "guessing right". Plus, on top of it... b+1 > EX SGC connects on hit or block. If it was still mid, there wouldn't be anything else to do. You'd just build meter, and b+1 > EX SGC. Done. That would have been the whole gameplan. Perfect flowchart material))
 
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Tweedy

Tweedy

Noob
B32 > B1 for Sun God imo. Especially since characters can't just OS armor you with launching armor anymore. Outside of Sun God this character is quite trash imo.

But yeah, B32 guarantees a D1. If they respect that, command grab. If your D1 lands, 114, go into 1 xx command grab or just finish the string with an air throw. After that make them guess on D1 or command grab again.

War God is so horrible right now, I don't know what to think. At least in comparison to what War God was. Man........
 
Slavaslave

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
LeeVanDam said:
I want to discuss your last point first. The concept of footsie versus pressure requires two different mindsets, so many times the same moves don't perform both functions well.

Footsies are when you are using a combination of movement and a strike attack at its maximum distance in order to hit your opponent in space where it is extremely difficult to hit you back (i.e. d+4 at max range). You're not trying to apply pressure when you are engaged in footsies. It has nothing to do with frame advantage at all. You're actually trying to get your opponent to overextended by whiffing a move after you've done something and it allows you to whiff punish with f+2, f+1,2, etc.


Pressure, or utilizing frame advantage to keep an opponent pinned down. If you're able to maintain frame advantage with very little risk (i.e. old b+1), then pressure games devolve into meter management because you're just waiting to armor through stuff instead of finding holes where you could risk letting go of block in order to properly interrupt a high attack string.

Example: 1,1,4 on block for us is still really great. You can use it after a lot of stuff to where even though your opponent could let go of block after blocking (jump in attack), but they're not going to unless they make a hard read on you. It's too risky because 1,1,4 will eat up anything other than neutral ducking and give you a high damaging combo opportunity. So, they block the string and you get your frame advantage. Now with Sun God, you still have choices even though b+1 is high. They can't beat your d+4 (it will also low profile some armor moves for you), and people can barely interrupt f+1 if you really want to use a mid. With d+4 if they block low, you get a tick throw set up... on hit you could cancel into EX Sunstone to at worst maintain frame advantage. You're even okay on hit if you cancelled into the SGC and it whiffs. No harm done.

With f+1,2 you're at -1 on block, so you could EX SGC their retailation attempt. You could also d+4 because it's so fast, that most people don't have an 8 frame mid which can contend with you (even Kotal can't beat himself when this is done to him outside of EX parry). That loops you back around to d+4 on hit or block.


Remember, b+3,2 gives you frame advantage on block and has a huge hit box. So if you find yourself at distance, it's definitely a great tool which moves you back up close AND gives you frame advantage on block. It's definitely going to be a work horse. f+1,2 as explained above doesn't give you frame advantage on paper, but it has the potential to be very rewarding on block as well. I'm sure you'll find your way the longer we play with the new patch :)



((Small Soapbox, so you can skip reading this:
In how the game is now, b+1,1,2 > EX Sunstone starting off with a mid is too good and couldn't continue like we had it. You'd make almost every character spend two bars to break of pressure that builds TONS of meter for you, because if they only break out using one bar... you've dealt more damage in chip damage and them eating the EX Sunstone in armor than what they get for "guessing right". Plus, on top of it... b+1 > EX SGC connects on hit or block. If it was still mid, there wouldn't be anything else to do. You'd just build meter, and b+1 > EX SGC. Done. That would have been the whole gameplan. Perfect flowchart material))


((Small Soapbox, so you can skip reading this:
In how the game is now, b+1,1,2 > EX Sunstone starting off with a mid is too good and couldn't continue like we had it. You'd make almost every character spend two bars to break of pressure that builds TONS of meter for you, because if they only break out using one bar... you've dealt more damage in chip damage and them eating the EX Sunstone in armor than what they get for "guessing right". Plus, on top of it... b+1 > EX SGC connects on hit or block. If it was still mid, there wouldn't be anything else to do. You'd just build meter, and b+1 > EX SGC. Done. That would have been the whole gameplan. Perfect flowchart material))
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. If I'm understanding you right I'd sum it up as Kotal plays a more SFV kinda game now. Slow, capitalizing on good spacing, and it's not about hitting a lot of combos, it's about hitting hard when you do. Pressure isn't about mixups, it's about getting a target combo in that gives you spacing which can be used to my advantage.

I think switching from sun to war God after EVO hurt me, being able to b1 into mixup or EX sword throw made it feel like I should be rushing down and I've taken that back to SG with me to my downfall.

Gist of what I've learned from this thread? Slow the fuck down, use your spacing, and punish hard.
 
M

Mr $tealYoGirl

Noob
Ok so I just picked up Kotal post patch.
Wow, totally different.
Back1 was so detrimental to his pressure that it feels very limited now.
Now that it's a High it Makes low poking him more attractive since you wont have to fear getting B122'd into Sawblade if you will just trade most of the time.
That really great mixup is gone and is now replaced by knockdowns in F12 and B32 which are both slower.
F1 on block leads to another poke batte F12 leads to ok pressure but again having B1 be high means they can risk a low poke trade. B32 is reactable at range and has the same problems as F1 and F12 do on block....if you don't want to get poked out of a B1 you have to do another F1 or F12 or B32 which are all...again...slower with startup frames of 11 and 13.
Did I mention they don't lead to significant combo damage?

I wouldn't be so mad at the whole get rid of armor launchers thing if they would have left his back1 as mid. I would have been cool if it was -5 on block insted of -2..shit make it punishable for all I care the reward of making people fear your pressure would have been worth it.
I would even go so far as to say take away the F1,F12 and B32 buffs and armor launcher but leave the B1 as it was.

Am I asking for too much?
Maybe, but I been a Kotal main since Beta and always loved how honest of a character he was in the fact that he did damage by hiting you with his fists and not projectiles. He was also had great rushdown qualities which is the style of play I like.

What do yall think? Would you trade everything for a solid B1 mid?
 
xSamuel

xSamuel

Player of All, Master of None.
His strategy just changed. Now it's more of a conditioning process to get your opponent to respect your B1 and it's mix ups as well as follow up pressure from Sun Stone. You have a string that goes half screen or more and leaves you at advantage and frame traps into your poke, great for catching back dashes or as oki. F1 is a fast advancing mid that can lead to full combo (bigger than what comes from B1 as well). You expect a poke war then throw out F1B2 and/or hit confirm into sword mix up on block. Condition them to respect your poke and you get your offense. B1 made his pressure too linear, not saying it wasn't okay in the past meta. If he continued to have B1 as a mid then he would pretty stupid in this meta.

Moral of the story: adapt to your opponents tendencies and appreciate/apply the amazing tool set you have in safe/plus advancing mids, dashes, jump in, pokes, meter less plus frames, and two other solid variations to cover another's weaknesses.

As far as your complaint about his pressure, here are some options on a read after some scenarios you stated:
Opponent Backdashes Sunstone - 1) F1B2 , 2) B32
Opponent Pokes Stagger/Sunstone- 1) Punish the whiff, 2) Condition them to mid and you can start using highs for follow up pressure
Opponent Pokes a Staggered High - 1) Poke with cancel into special (sword) 2) Use F1/D1 in the place of the previous stagger to get respect for B1 next time
 
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xSamuel

xSamuel

Player of All, Master of None.
Mr $tealYoGirl said:
Ok so I just picked up Kotal post patch.
Wow, totally different.
Back1 was so detrimental to his pressure that it feels very limited now.
Now that it's a High it Makes low poking him more attractive since you wont have to fear getting B122'd into Sawblade if you will just trade most of the time.
That really great mixup is gone and is now replaced by knockdowns in F12 and B32 which are both slower.
F1 on block leads to another poke batte F12 leads to ok pressure but again having B1 be high means they can risk a low poke trade. B32 is reactable at range and has the same problems as F1 and F12 do on block....if you don't want to get poked out of a B1 you have to do another F1 or F12 or B32 which are all...again...slower with startup frames of 11 and 13.
Did I mention they don't lead to significant combo damage?

I wouldn't be so mad at the whole get rid of armor launchers thing if they would have left his back1 as mid. I would have been cool if it was -5 on block insted of -2..shit make it punishable for all I care the reward of making people fear your pressure would have been worth it.
I would even go so far as to say take away the F1,F12 and B32 buffs and armor launcher but leave the B1 as it was.

Am I asking for too much?
Maybe, but I been a Kotal main since Beta and always loved how honest of a character he was in the fact that he did damage by hiting you with his fists and not projectiles. He was also had great rushdown qualities which is the style of play I like.

What do yall think? Would you trade everything for a solid B1 mid?
Click to expand...
You're asking for too much. Armored launchers were what shut down B1 pressure/mix ups. Now that the mix ups have gotten one of their biggest enemies taken from them, B1 needed to be a high.
F1 is a great, fast advancing, mid. It can lead to full combo (more so than B1) on a read or be safe in the neutral putting him at good range for his normals.
B32 is plus on block, it shouldn't lead to a full combo on hit. You get really good oki if it does hit, which you could use for your beloved B1 pressure.
Kotal, as a whole, is very viable in this meta and B1 isn't dead it's just a bit more fair.

P.S. Just because you're not using a projectile doesn't mean it's fair. You can still have better normals than the majority of the cast and be dishonest ...
 
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xSamuel

xSamuel

Player of All, Master of None.
dennycascade said:
Lol, sorry you don't get braindead offense with risk/reward heavily in your favor anymore. Play possessed if you want that
Click to expand...
It really wasn't that bad, as long as you had an 11 frame launching armor. With Johnny I could just wait for B1 pressure and OS Nut Punch through any variation of B1 x Follow Up and get a full combo punish. If I blocked B122 OHSword I got a full combo from F3. The Risk/Reward would be braindead in this meta.

The only time I got really mopped by Kotal was by Blood God mains because they took the time to deepen their understanding of the meta and their entire list of options rather than just B1 all day.
 
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Gilbagz

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Option select i was working on with f1 which improves its safety when fishing for the higher damage f1b2
Gives you a decent option to blow up pokes
Will take practice but will help a tonne if you master it


 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Fix grab immune normals or fix EX db2. Sun god has no way off the ground in a few matchups but otherwise hes solid as they come, absolute footsie machine.
 
Toogee

Toogee

Kotal Kone BARGOD/sungod main
Im playing sg/wg till death because he's my main, but I don't see the real issue here with b1 being mid. He doesn't need it to be great I agree, but do cassie and smoke need their mid advancing normals? Two characters that zone better than kotal. Sure they're not 9 frames like kotals b1, but with most characters having 6-8 frame pokes, you have an answer. Also consider moves like kung jins njp that already beat b1 in a neutral stand off. I still think he's viable, but for anyone who knows the ins and outs that complain about such things? Get good.
 
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