Pointless D'vorah Buff thread

[Second Saint]

No one cares about armchair devs whining for buffs or nerfs, but I feel like I got to put it out there. D'vorah is mid tier, and doesn't necessarily need buffs, but we'll never see her in a top 8 as anything more than an extremely niche counter pick (which didn't work out too well for Tekken Master) or maybe if Sonic decides to mess around with her again. Maybe this list is too filled with personal gripes, but every single thing on it has frustrated me to no end at some point or another. I don't think any of this is unreasonable, but I'm sure some might disagree.

• 121: +2 (up from +1)
• f22d1+3: hitbox region adjusted so overhead no longer whiffs on crouching opponent.
• f22d1+3 Krushing blow requirements changed to landing twice and launches (from block late and DOT)
• 2 is now a mid
• Widow's kiss now cancellable for 1 defensive bar (-5 from f22)
• Strepsiptera no longer has auto block on projectiles in certain situations.

121 was originally +3 because that made sense. An 8f d1 needs more plus frames to do the same job a faster d1 requires. Then it got nerfed to -3, now it's +1, and that's just not enough. You trade with 7f pokes and get flat beaten by 6f pokes. With the reversal normal buffer increase recently, this isn't okay. I have to be frame perfect to trade against most of the cast and the opponent has a giant window to counter poke. It's such a clear imbalance that you're basically incentivized to mash on my plus frame.

I have a whole thread about the things wrong with f22d1+3, but to suffice to say it's an overhead that whiffs on 60% of the cast duck blocking, literally. This combined with the block late requirement has lead to me getting the KB one time in a match in the last year. Being able to load it makes it useful and increases the amount of pressure she can get out of her string enders by creating a real threat to make you block standing. Having a launch that doesn't cost meter would be incredible for Buzzed because that variation is extremely meter intensive.

D'vorah requires an actual mid or much more frame advantage on her pokes. It is ludicrous that barring her sweep, her fastest low is 17f and leads to nothing. Her fastest mid is 19f and cannot be used to stop mashing after d1 on hit as that is only +10. 21222 is an 11f high string that can only launch in Arachnophobia right now. As a mid it would, frankly, not be that uncommon of a tool to have. You need a decent mid in this game. Without one, you've got serious problems.

Widow's Kiss can already be held for no reason, and I firmly believe it was meant to have a cancel at one point that was removed. This is the buff I have the least justifiable reasons for. It's just...why is Arachnophobia so boring, and why is there no variation of D'vorah with cancels in this game? Just...why?

The last one takes some explaining, because what I'm proposing is that strep bugs work like most people already think they work. That is, if you get hit by one, you will get comboed. Right now, that's often not the case. If you decide to mash after a block string with ex strep out, and the first bug counter hits you before you make contact with D'vorah, it auto blocks and will not so much as link into the second and third bugs. You've made the wrong decision and pushed buttons in a setup you had no business pushing buttons in, and your penalty is 30 damage and some hit stun. Imagine if Frost's cryo crown or Joker's jack in the box functioned the same way. I've spent bar on this and you fucked up and got counter hit. Let me have my incredibly scaled combo, like I would in most other situations, please.

 

[Blewdew]

I have to agree to all the points. She was my favorite character in mkx and in mk11 she feels so unfinished. Making her d1 +15 would be a nice start so she doesn‘t get poked out of everything.

 

[Second Saint]

I have to agree to all the points. She was my favorite character in mkx and in mk11 she feels so unfinished. Making her d1 +15 would be a nice start so she doesn‘t get poked out of everything.

I thought about that, but if she had an 11f mid, that wouldn't matter and would just be too extra. One or the other is necessary, not both. This isn't even everything I want for her, this is just what I think she needs. I'd also like 12~puddle to link, but maybe that'd be asking for too much, considering everything else here.

 

[Zviko]

• Widow's kiss now cancellable for 1 defensive bar (-5 from f22)

I'm surprised they didn't do this when they designed it. But it does have the delay option for some reason, completely useless.

 

[n1kosh]

• 2 is now a mid

they don’t do this...
2 = mid = injustice...
i never seen 2 = mid in MK. maybe i wrong? ‍

 

[Second Saint]

• 2 is now a mid

they don’t do this...
2 = mid = injustice...
i never seen 2 = mid in MK. maybe i wrong? ‍♂

They're unlikely to do any of this. Part of why pointless is in the title. But that's the string it should be. F1 would become one of the single most obnoxious problematic strings in the game with it's range and speed. 4 could work, but that would give KK unfuzzyable mix off a mid.

 

[Arqwart]

Note since I bumped the thread: this post was from April 2020, aka before customs were released and poke/hitbox changes were introduced. Take much of it with a grain of salt as it's aged.

Buffs, Nerfs, Bug Fixes. Explanations underneath each group of changes.

Baseline
12 hit advantage: +13 -> +16
121 block: +1 -> +2
Increasing the hit advantage of 12 from +13 to +16 allows it to combo into amplified Ground Swarm as well as Widow's Kiss. This is a direct buff to D'Vorah's ability to capitalize on tight punish windows via her fastest high. As it is now, all you get is 12xxKatipo Rush which is a measly 90 damage. As Second Saint mentioned for 121 on block, this one frame added allows D'Vorah to actually get her 8f D1 out after instead of usually being straight up beaten when plus.

F1 region: high -> mid
F1 block: -5f -> -9f
F13 block: -6f -> -9f
This is a dangerous change to make for a character like D'Vorah, but I do feel she needs a mid to compete because right now, you can basically just duck and react to an advancing D'Vorah with no issue. Her advancing threat "potential" is just a 12f high, a 12f sweep, and a 19f mid. A 12f mid in this game is nothing overly insane, even if it has the range of something like D'Vorah's F1. However, just to compensate for this massive buff to a long range / trap character, the F1 and its follow-up should be punishable on block if she doesn't commit to a special after. I said -9f due to the new buffer timing, but -10f would also be appropriate.

Ground Swarm (DB1): range locations for regular, far, and very far adjusted. They now mirror Geras' sand trap locations.
D'Vorah is the only character in the game right now with a ground-based close/regular/far/very far move that cannot cause a threat to someone completely full screen. This change is more for consistency across the cast than anything else.

Buzzed
F22d1+3 hitbox: no longer whiffs crouching opponents
F22d1+3 KB: now triggers if only the final hit lands
First line speaks for itself. It's an overhead that whiffs crouching targets. The second line, however, is something that makes perfect sense to me considering D'Vorah leaps at the opponent with the final attack (taking the advancement of F22 into consideration, F22d1+3 moves about 90% of the screen in total). If D'Vorah is willing to take the risk to throw out a total of 61 frames in neutral from a distance, or the opponent gets caught improperly blocking the overhead that has a pokeable / flawless blockable gap, she should be rewarded accordingly.

F22u1+3 KB: now triggers if D'Vorah has landed Bugged Out (F224) and Tsetse (F22d1+3) beforehand
Current KB will never happen except by luck. This new one takes after the best designed KB in the game: Jacqui's Clench.

Arachnophobia
Widow's Kiss (DB3): now may be canceled for 1 defensive bar
Pretty simple idea of a change: the combo variation suddenly gets some actual pressure options added to it. Do note that the changes to 12's hit advantage and of F1 to a mid mentioned above are very notable buffs to this combo / pressure variation so I kept direct variation changes minimal.

Kreepy Krawler
Bombardier Beetle (DF3) arming time (unamplified): 60f -> 30f
Bombardier Beetle (DF3) AI (unamplified): now crawls at opponent before jumping at them
Amplified bombardier beetle, aka the only way the move is currently worth jack shit, arms in 30f. Unamplified bombardier beetle, which is currently one of the worst moves in the game, arms in 60f. Adding in the 31f startup to even summon the bug, that's a total of 91f for one of the worst moves in the entire game. Thus the lowering to 30f to match its amplified counterpart. In addition, making the unamplified bug go towards the opponent before jumping instead of just committing bug suicide immediately would make the move actually worth using without meter.

Fly By (BF3) minimum distance: 3 character lengths -> 1 character length
Fly By (BF3) air recovery: ?f -> 0f
Fly By (BF3) aerial state: D'Vorah is no longer considered ascending for the first few frames after canceling Fly By. She is now immediately considered descending so all air attacks after Fly By are always Overheads.
I was in the lab for a solid hour trying to understand the ins and outs of Fly By and in its current state, I think it's one of the worst variation moves across the entire cast. I'd put this in "Cassie's Flippin' Out" tier of garbage. You are currently forced to fly a minimum of 3 character distances no matter what, there's a large frame delay after canceling the fly before D'Vorah can do anything which leaves her completely open to someone swatting her fly ass out of the air with no risk, and D'Vorah is considered ascending for the first few frames after canceling during which time her air attacks are only mids. This ascending aerial state isn't even based on what her aerial state was when she started Fly By. It just always does this. To conclude: after you fly a long ass distance with your opponent free to do whatever during this time, you are then sitting in the air post-cancel for what appears to be a good 13-16f after which you are rewarded with a mid. Amazing. Anyway, the changes above will change Fly By from Flippin' Out tier to "Holy shit this is some crazy ass unique dirt for the strangest variation ever." The changes would allow Kreepy Krawler to have very weird hard-to-blockable setups as well as multi-air-attack Fly By combos / pressure.

 

[Second Saint]

Disagree on f22u1+3 KB being useless. That move is specifically designed to beat flawless blocks, which it does well. The problem is that the rest of the enders are in such sorry shape that this aspect is never needed.

I don't think that f1 should be a mid. There's just too much range and it's very easily hit confirmable. It would be incredibly obnoxious, to say the least.

12~puddle linking is something I've gone back and forth on. It is, quite simply, a massive buff to a character like D'vorah. Being able to combo off of a hitconfirmable button post db4 is one of the best reasons to play Arachnophobia right now. Giving that to Buzzed could legitimately push it over the edge. The reason I left it out of my list is because I don't consider it essential, and in a perfect world I'd implement everything else and evaluate if a 12 buff might be necessary afterwards.

I don't play KK because it's not really my style. Suggested buffs seem reasonable. Especially the fly by stuff.

 

[Arqwart]

Disagree on f22u1+3 KB being useless. That move is specifically designed to beat flawless blocks, which it does well. The problem is that the rest of the enders are in such sorry shape that this aspect is never needed.

I don't think that f1 should be a mid. There's just too much range and it's very easily hit confirmable. It would be incredibly obnoxious, to say the least.

12~puddle linking is something I've gone back and forth on. It is, quite simply, a massive buff to a character like D'vorah. Being able to combo off of a hitconfirmable button post db4 is one of the best reasons to play Arachnophobia right now. Giving that to Buzzed could legitimately push it over the edge. The reason I left it out of my list is because I don't consider it essential, and in a perfect world I'd implement everything else and evaluate if a 12 buff might be necessary afterwards.

I don't play KK because it's not really my style. Suggested buffs seem reasonable. Especially the fly by stuff.

I can see u1+3 KB being useful only if d1+3 doesn't whiff half the cast.

F1 is comparable to the likes of Jacqui, Erron, and Jax's mid kicks in range, all three of which are easily hit confirmable after. Do I think it's a "necessary" change? Not particularly. Do I think D'Vorah could use help in her advancing ability? Yes. Overall, this is the least important change on the list for me and I would be more than happy to see everything else without this.

12 linking is something that I disagree with as being an enormous buff to Buzzed. It'd be a notable one for sure, but Buzzed is already hyper meter intensive with Strepsiptera. The main thing here that I'm aiming for is that it gives Arachnophobia, whose ONLY strength right now is combo power, the ability to properly punish a lot more moves.

KK is bottom 5 variation right now but has so much damn potential. Fly By and Beetle are currently both super duper awful AND she loses the safety of amp'd Katipo Rush due to Flippin' Out replacing it. (I also just noticed that it has the exact same move name as Cassie's). The main thing is that KK could be one of the single most unique variations in terms of weird strengths if given the opportunity. Fly By mixups alongside Flippin' Out being available in the air, Fly By / Flippin' Out + Beetle hard-to-blockables, Beetle oki / meaty setups, Fly By anti-zoning, Fly By cross-ups to mess with opponents' inputs, Fly By multi-air-attack combo potential to either start or even post-launch, etc.

 

[Hebrew Negro]

Yoo I been sayin since day 1 that widows kiss should be able to be cancelled.

 

[Second Saint]

I can see u1+3 KB being useful only if d1+3 doesn't whiff half the cast.

F1 is comparable to the likes of Jacqui, Erron, and Jax's mid kicks in range, all three of which are easily hit confirmable after. Do I think it's a "necessary" change? Not particularly. Do I think D'Vorah could use help in her advancing ability? Yes. Overall, this is the least important change on the list for me and I would be more than happy to see everything else without this.

12 linking is something that I disagree with as being an enormous buff to Buzzed. It'd be a notable one for sure, but Buzzed is already hyper meter intensive with Strepsiptera. The main thing here that I'm aiming for is that it gives Arachnophobia, whose ONLY strength right now is combo power, the ability to properly punish a lot more moves.

KK is bottom 5 variation right now but has so much damn potential. Fly By and Beetle are currently both super duper awful AND she loses the safety of amp'd Katipo Rush due to Flippin' Out replacing it. (I also just noticed that it has the exact same move name as Cassie's). The main thing is that KK could be one of the single most unique variations in terms of weird strengths if given the opportunity. Fly By mixups alongside Flippin' Out being available in the air, Fly By / Flippin' Out + Beetle hard-to-blockables, Beetle oki / meaty setups, Fly By anti-zoning, Fly By cross-ups to mess with opponents' inputs, Fly By multi-air-attack combo potential to either start or even post-launch, etc.

The fly by buff definitely seems important to making KK work/more unique to me. I know she can already link multiple air attacks, but it's incredibly tight, and a big risk. Not to mention just hitting a standing opponent with j2 in the first place is pretty rough.

Also, isn't one of them actually Flipping out, without an apostrophe? Either way, c'mon NRS.

 

[Arqwart]

Disagree on f22u1+3 KB being useless. That move is specifically designed to beat flawless blocks, which it does well. The problem is that the rest of the enders are in such sorry shape that this aspect is never needed.

I don't think that f1 should be a mid. There's just too much range and it's very easily hit confirmable. It would be incredibly obnoxious, to say the least.

12~puddle linking is something I've gone back and forth on. It is, quite simply, a massive buff to a character like D'vorah. Being able to combo off of a hitconfirmable button post db4 is one of the best reasons to play Arachnophobia right now. Giving that to Buzzed could legitimately push it over the edge. The reason I left it out of my list is because I don't consider it essential, and in a perfect world I'd implement everything else and evaluate if a 12 buff might be necessary afterwards.

I don't play KK because it's not really my style. Suggested buffs seem reasonable. Especially the fly by stuff.

Update: I totally forgot Arachnophobia can do 12xxWidow's Kiss against tall opponents so adding just 1 hit frame to 12 should hopefully make it work against the whole cast while also keeping it from comboing into puddle launch. Also, it'd be a nice increase in consistency for the character.

 

[Zimbobweigh]

i have a fun idea:

any of y'all get kinky with raw amplified ground puddles? there are occasions where when I'm being bullied by zoning, I spend a bar to bop them from near full screen. hardly rewarding, but I've used it to cinch the last bit of damage on a round when someone thinks they can spam projectiles with no consequence, or I do it after a fatal blow (it leaves you at a perfect distance for a surprise max distance amp ground swarm).

i think it'd be cool to add a crushing blow to it if you land the raw amplified from max distance. maybe leave them in a stunned standing state as they swat bugs of themselves, so you can hop over and get a combo. or just make a big burst of damage off it


since we're getting greedy with our requests, can we get a little less landing lag on the air bugs too?

i also think amplified bf4 should have a point to it in non-arachnophobia variations.

 

[Second Saint]

If I could make an addendum to the original post, I think I would change the distance back throw goes so that it's a little closer. Right now, you're supposed to get a dash in f2, but at 19f of hit advantage, the dash in creates room for characters with good back dashes to avoid this entirely and whiff punish you. Also it gives jumpy people time to get off the ground so that you don't actually get anything even if someone made the wrong choice.

Low key one of the biggest strengths to have in this game is the ability to recapture off of strings when an opponent goes airborne. For some, this is a total non issue. For D'vorah, she may very well get nothing at all.

Edit: reason I would change distance and not hit advantage is I don't want to effect back throws into the corner.

 

[Arqwart]

HoneyBee coming in with some buff ideas for D'Vorah. Listing them below for those who can't watch atm.

"Needed" Buffs

• 12 combos into Ground Swarm and Widow's Kiss
• F224 doesn't whiff on crouch blockers
• 121 and S3 more plus on block (+3 is his example)
• B34 special cancelable

Buff Ideas

• Widow's Kiss 1 variation slot instead of 2
• F4 safer, resulting in it being unpunishable at far distances (-9 is his example) or entirely safe
• F22 no longer punishable on block (-6 is his example)

He also specifically mentions that making F1 a mid is a bad idea.

 

[Hebrew Negro]

I've said since day 1 that teleport should either be cancellable or she become 100% invulnerable while holding it.

 

[okhuskerfan]

HoneyBee coming in with some buff ideas for D'Vorah. Listing them below for those who can't watch atm.

"Needed" Buffs

• 12 combos into Ground Swarm and Widow's Kiss
• F224 doesn't whiff on crouch blockers
• 121 and S3 more plus on block (+3 is his example)
• B34 special cancelable

Buff Ideas

• Widow's Kiss 1 variation slot instead of 2
• F4 safer, resulting in it being unpunishable at far distances (-9 is his example) or entirely safe
• F22 no longer punishable on block (-6 is his example)

He also specifically mentions that making F1 a mid is a bad idea.

All of these items mentioned, f12 into tele or ground swarm the most obvious and beneficial. Just stupid that D'vorah players have to rely on 11 frame high for a full punish while the majority of the cast has 9 frame mids or 7-8 high s1s for full punish. So stupid.