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General/Other - Kenshi Please fix this string (Kenshi)

Personally, I think the OP is onto something.

That one looks like it was designed to be his safe string.
You had faith and this is your reward :)


They're true block string only from max range. (It's funny to think they shouldn't be, when kenjutsu is melee combat focused variation. This strings work perfectly in his two other variations that he dosen't need them as much as kenjutsu does)

Strings are: 11, 111 and 114.

This was my first thread and it'll be my last.
 

HugeMcBigLarge

Retirement my ass
TL;DR: There are some pretty deep-seated wounds in the community that this harped on perfectly, therefor leading to the strong backlash you received. Don't take this personally and don't stop posting, you should continue to contribute and work at this. Generally this is a very good community and friendly if you don't happen to poke the wounds already there.

I normally try to be positive and encourage most people in their posts. There has been a long running theme of 'buff my char' or 'fix strings that say mid and whiff' or 'this is so OP, must be nerfed wtf are NRS thinking?'

This thread happened to hit a weird mix of being right on cognitive science (reaction time, difference in reaction time measurements, etc.) so I had fun researching this, happened to be a little drunk, and also just the figurative straw that broke the camel's back for my tolerance of those kinds of posts.

I know Sonya suffers something that is literally identical to this: her primary string: b14 (the overhead to low) has the exact same spacing issues where it is interruptible when close, but safe at long range. A lot of other characters suffer from this, mis-labelled mids vs highs, or just strings that have armor-able (or even parry-able!) gaps in their strings.

I would highly encourage you to not get overly discouraged from posting and keep attempting to contribute, but just keep in mind immediate or accussations that people don't understand how to do their job that they have spent years of their life doing (and often even more outside of their job; most people in the video game industry play video games for fun as well).

It's a notably sore subject for most people that frequent this forum that so many people say 'game engine is borken' or 'my character isn't as good as I want it to be, therefor I request XYZ and buffs.'

It's something that's remarkably rampant in this game, and one of the main criticisms that I've heard lobbied against NRS communities from other FGC's ("Why don't you just play the game instead of crying about characers") and also part of the reason why so much name calling goes on: if you aren't top 8 in a major, don't talk about balance, OR online players don't even play the same game, OR everyone cries w/o learning a character, etc.

NRS games get reasonably frequently patched relative to other games, so players have less time to adjust to specific things and they tend to jump to conclucsions even faster than most; often before they've had the chance to fully explore options.

I like that you added the criticism based on character identity and how you think kenjutsu should be played; however balance is NOT about making everything homogenous. You don't want every character to be good at everything and have no weaknesses. That would be an idiotic game and would get boring fast. That's why I'm of the opinion that when Quan Chi gets knocked down in the corner, he absolutely gets bent over and SHOULD lose. His offense is a train that doesn't get stopped until the other player makes a few good guesses. Kenshi is one of the strongest zoning characters in the game and that is and has been his core identity since mk9; kenjutsu might be a flavor variation, but the best zoning character shouldn't be one of the best rushdown/melee characters as well from an identity or game design perspective; it leads to super flat and boring top 8's (ever notice how many foxes there are in super smash melee tournies?)

Ultimately game balance is something a lot of different people have very strong opinions on because the game is a big part of their free time, but it is not something most people have had extensive time practicing. Bug reports and forums like this are a fantastic place for people to be able to interact with the game designers and talk about this with them, however if everyone is crying wolf (bug reports that aren't bugs, cries for balance of components of the game engine, etc.) then the developers will become much more callous to the audience in general and will either stop listening to that community or just take them less seriously which hurts the entire community. THAT is why you see such a big backlash from so many different people about something like this.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
there isnt much footage of kenjutsu to show, and i dont this think 11 was made to not be a true block string its his god damn 11 lol.
this happens to his 11, 114 and 111 too, notice this doesnt happen in his other variations.

after 10sec of lab practice, see the video, and im sure i can do it in heat of battle after a few mins of lab time.
notice: i do it as soon as i see the sword not before it!





please refer to the easy video, and prepare to be shocked



Yes he is based on melee combat more then any other thing in kenjutsu.

are you a developer or you think gap was intended?

-------------------

anyway i'm done arguing for nothing if they want to fix this absurd bug they will.
peace out.
Can u name me one applicable reason to use 11 or 111, even if this were fixed, that isn't a punish?

Plz do
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
11 is safe on block
11 accomplishes nothing, absolutely nothing

A High mid that's interruptible

There's Nothing applicable about this string that's even remotely considerable, there's no mixup, meter building is putrid. Idk wtf you're trying to accomplish in the neutral using 11

Far better options (even if 11 didn't have this game killing hole)

1
421
322
D4
311
31bf2
B32
F2 bf2
4412
4d4
 
11 accomplishes nothing, absolutely nothing

A High mid that's interruptible

There's Nothing applicable about this string that's even remotely considerable, there's no mixup, meter building is putrid. Idk wtf you're trying to accomplish in the neutral using 11

Far better options (even if 11 didn't have this game killing hole)

1
421
322
D4
311
31bf2
B32
F2 bf2
4412
4d4
1> why should someone use 1 when 11 has such great reach that it can be converted into full combo. (i know how to poke)

421> it's not as fast as 11.

D4> why should i use d4 instead of 11! (i know how to control space with this)

311> 311,31 and 312 aren't fast enough compared to 11.

31bf2> leaves you at -13 and some characters can still punish you even with pushback that creates (for example: sub-zero slide, jacquie bf1, scorpion takedown and more), there are sometimes and some match ups that you really don't want to put space between yourself and opponent, to be just safe, quan chi for example.

b32> not as fast as 11.

f2 bf2> same like 31bf2, with more start up ,18!

4412> interruptible, same for prior string 441.

4d4> not as fast as 11 and you can't combo after when it hits.


i do utilize his moves and i do nearly all of them, but this strings cant't do what 11 can do.

is it really hard to understand this? everyone has such string like this and better and they're not just for punish, like sub-zero 11 or b12 or scorpion 11 or all of the cast maybe.
all i'm asking is to fix his 11! his fast safe string thats all and if they won't i don't mind anymore.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
1> why should someone use 1 when 11 has such great reach that it can be converted into full combo. (i know how to poke)

421> it's not as fast as 11.

D4> why should i use d4 instead of 11! (i know how to control space with this)

311> 311,31 and 312 aren't fast enough compared to 11.

31bf2> leaves you at -13 and some characters can still punish you even with pushback that creates (for example: sub-zero slide, jacquie bf1, scorpion takedown and more), there are sometimes and some match ups that you really don't want to put space between yourself and opponent, to be just safe, quan chi for example.

b32> not as fast as 11.

f2 bf2> same like 31bf2, with more start up ,18!

4412> interruptible, same for prior string 441.

4d4> not as fast as 11 and you can't combo after when it hits.


i do utilize his moves and i do nearly all of them, but this strings cant't do what 11 can do.

is it really hard to understand this? everyone has such string like this and better and they're not just for punish, like sub-zero 11 or b12 or scorpion 11 or all of the cast maybe.
all i'm asking is to fix his 11! his fast safe string thats all and if they won't i don't mind anymore.


1 is +2 on block and +4 on crouch block and sets up a 8-10 frame b3 low or throw and can be used to bait Wakeup armor to punish


11 does not control ANY Space. Have u ever seen his d4? It's f ing huge and is a low and on hit guaranteed run xx throw /b3 or standing 1 which sets up the above mentioned

421 bf2 build almost half a bar and can be staggered at 42 and 421 leaving u at +2/+4 for above mentioned or to go into a d4 to then repeat above mentioned

311 is a mid mid low and is one of his main mixups unlike 11 being garbage and having no mix up let alone being a short range high

Funny u mention bf2 vs quan, IT PUTS U AT MAX RANGE ON BLOCK WHERE HE CANT punish df1

The rest......

Dude I'm out, I feel like reading your post is either a troll or you don't wanna listen to logic . You should reevaluate how you're playing

I'm sure if 11 is fixed you would own the neutral smh
 
MKX is played at 60 frames per second. Kenshi's standing 1 has a 10 frame start up.

That means that it takes 10/60 seconds to start: in other words 0.16666666666 seconds.

The average human reaction speed is ~.257 seconds in a simple reaction test. (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics)

MKX doesn't mimic a simple reaction test and according to the kenjutsu combo thread (http://testyourmight.com/threads/kenshis-kenjutsu-living-guide-updated-7-10-15.53431/) there are 8 different viable strings off of which you can start combos and achieve reasonable damage. This would most closely mirror the choice reaction time tests for reaction speed as it is not simply yes/no, but it is what did he do, now I need to react to it.




Because I'm not trying to write a dissertation on this insane troll-bait of a thread, it can be safely assumed that in a complex reaction test such as a neutral situation between kenjutsu and his opponent, there is no way anyone can ever REACT reliably to a 10 frame start up and input their start up string.

Interesting reading of the topic would include the Jensen Box tests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_box and an application of Hick's Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hick's_law.

Literally impossible to reliably get this on reaction. Holes in strings are a reality of this game and as multiple people have pointed out, other characters have the same problem as this.

I repeat, this is not a real problem and I am amazed that you think that it is.

You are failing to account for the duration frames, the second part of the string most likely hits on the 25th frame or so. That's how c88 dab reactions to green lantern's b13 by backdashing after b1, despite it being 9 frames startup. Either that or he is just inhuman. It could be his mustache though.
 
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Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
  • Kenshi )Kenjutsu) – Removed gap in the fp, fp, fp string
its about time
Glad u got your fix u were raving about

Sucks we didn't get any that matter

Now go show us at next major why this is so good

I understand the stagger, I use it a lot but this is NOT a big fix
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Glad u got your fix u were raving about

Sucks we didn't get any that matter

Now go show us at next major why this is so good

I understand the stagger, I use it a lot but this is NOT a big fix
I respect your insight immensely, but I think you're underestimating the usefulness of this a little bit.

I get he still has some bad matchups and this doesn't swing them, but it does serve to create easier advantageous situations.

Improved hitboxes would have been better, but this is an improvement that is going to help.

 
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Glad u got your fix u were raving about

Sucks we didn't get any that matter

Now go show us at next major why this is so good

I understand the stagger, I use it a lot but this is NOT a big fix
don't get me wrong i don't think kenshi is viable but it was absurd to have this bug on top of his other problems! (and i made a simple thread to show it but a whole country attacked me!)
the biggest problem of kenshi is his bf3 long ass whiff recovery especially in his most zoning based variation Balanced! (needs faster db4 startup too in this fast pace game)
anyway this kenshi is not even close to MK9.