Player mind, the one about reads and reactions

Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Eddy Wang, Mar 15, 2019 at 6:24 AM.

  1. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    There has been a lot of articles that states that average human reaction its around 265 miliseconds which goes on the 16f treshold, and there has been past posts on TYM of players (won't mentioning exactly who are they) claming they can react to 16f on their regular which is in fact a big lie.

    This thread however will take my researchs and findings into a new direction, where after years researching this matter, which helped me to formulate new strategies on other fighing games such as tekken and so on, i wanted to share with people what i have found and how it can be benefitial to your own discovery when fighting other good players out there in any fighting game.

    1. The fastest documented reaction from a human being goes has a record of 15 frames, and no less, while its an impressive feat, the test was submited to the person to react to a single thing, based on this we get to conclude that the recordist had its focus on a single thing, in fighting game usually when put under a mixup you are forced to react to multiple things so yo can't exactly maintain your focus into a single thing waiting to happen, there for, anyone's reaction will no longer be 15f it will be more.

    2. Results from past tests using NRS players(top and average) actual matches to measure the time that occurs once an attacks happens and the time it takes for a player to react to it once it happens a few conclusions were made.

    a) Fastest recorded reaction documented from 19 hard to common 22 to 23 frames
    b) Average/common reaction documented around 24f to 28
    c) Under Average reactions documented around 29 to 33 frames
    d) worst reactions documented above 33 frames

    Any reaction under 15 are considered just hard reads
    while 15 to 20 can still be considered reactions, it requires precision focus because you have to look for those things so reads are usually involved, Sonic Fox made a 17f whiff punishing in one of those videos and reacted to jump attacks with uppercuts at 27f roughly.

    Tekken balancing on reaction tresholds
    Hellsweeps from mishimas are 16f, no one is blocking that on reaction, it requires focus so you have to look for it.

    Jin hellsweep at its fastest execution its 20f, if slow it becomes 23~24 due the crouch dash 3 animation startup telepgraphing so you can react to it, if your execution its perfect, the hellsweep its still almost unseeable, which in turns condition people to duck for longer than 20f which jin can use to land other fast mids he has, such as an 13f df1, 15f bf21/bf23, an 16f f4, an 19f Ecd1, a 23f ff3.

    Bryan's hellsweep its 26f, you can block on reaction due being slow, however it conditions you to not hack away against him since its a high crushing move, its supposed to be used while reacting to highs and highly offensive players, giving them no time to use a move and recover in time to block it.

    NRS balancing on reaction tresholds (Yes i will bring the classic case)
    Skarlet from MK9
    Overhead (No dash) over 26f (very reactable)
    Red Dash into overhead 18f (Requires focus/read to react to it)
    Usual TYM excuse was she telegraphs her overhead so you can see it (Look under)
    Red dash into ex overhead 13f (unreactable)
    With meter you could no longer focus while blocking low, you would intituively stand in fear of the 13f OH
    Low slide 8f (unreactable)
    Jab 10f, (Jails ppl standing up into a unescapable blockstring) Use that to mix with the fear of the overhead, so they start focusing on avoiding it making them crouch for longer than 18f (Same principle as Jin's)

    KL MKX
    Ovehread (18f) somewhat unreactable without focus

    Sonya MKX Vanilla
    Overhead: 13f (unreactable)
    Low : 11f (unreactable)

    Reserved for MK11
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 6:39 AM
  2. KidVanDal

    KidVanDal Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Inb4 people start saying they can react to 12f overheads..
  3. Just wow man. Thanks for putting your time an effort. Erron’s Overhead low string was cancer until it got fixed. It means one shouldn’t smash his pad against his head if failed to react, right? I’m really running low on pads
  4. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    Someone is going to report you of harassment over this post so watch out.
  5. SaSSolino

    SaSSolino MK11 Cary Tagawa main!

    If I have a lot of experience against a move, and the animation is clear, I can react to around an i20 offline with some sort of consistency. Also I need to be ready for it as an option.

    That said my reactions aren't the best.
  6. xenogorgeous

    xenogorgeous Your politics bore me!
    Premium Supporter

    very good one, Eddy, you're really a true MK gameplay/mechanic scientist .... your technical threads are top notch ! :D
    Eddy Wang likes this.
  7. Krankk

    Krankk Smoke & Noob

    Do people react to throws in NRS fighting games, or are those all predicted (typical after certain setups, opponent way too close for regular neutral etc.)?

    Scar strikes me as insanely good at tagging (or is it teching?) throws. I could never figure out, if he does it on reaction, or if he has the Shining and sees them coming.
  8. GLoRToR

    GLoRToR Jaded since 2011

    I can react to anything.
    I scream FUCK THIS SHIT after repeatedly being hit by it, that's my reaction.
  9. Grape Juice City

    Grape Juice City Swoop Unapologetically

    I think I remember hearing/reading that throws in mkx came out in 12 frames? I don't know what the tech window is but I don't believe it's large enough for anyone to tech on pure reflex. Top players like Scar react more so to the situation they're in and almost never just audible or visual stimuli alone. That's why it's more common to see throws teched after staggers and not just raw ones thrown out like after a blocked low poke.
    Eddy Wang and Krankk like this.
  10. Vslayer

    Vslayer Ask me about my Cassie Cage Agenda
    Premium Supporter


    Also, very good info thanks for putting together!
    GLoRToR and Eddy Wang like this.
  11. Circus

    Circus Part-Time Kano Hostage

    It's definitely on reaction.

    I've always been good at teching throws in Tekken and Mortal Kombat too.

    You really just have to condition yourself. It's a very unique and consistant animation.

    Of course you won't be teching every throw in the heat of the moment though.
    Krankk likes this.
  12. I'm a little confused about this. So is it saying anything 20 frames and under are rarely reactable in a match, but moreso requires preemptive thinking?
  13. Relatable and the worst thig is that before the fight I tell myself not to do against the character. I fight against Kitana and say to myself “Don’t fucking jump”. And the first thing I do is that I fucking jump and eat 30%
    Baron Greenback and GLoRToR like this.
  14. KidVanDal

    KidVanDal Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Reads, yes
    Corruption100 likes this.
  15. You need to read the opponent, that’s the sense. For example on one of their Kombat Kast someobe picked Jade ( I thinkit was Derrick) and did a lot of Overhead moves abd did actually hit the opponent with it. Jade’s overhead is 20+ frames on startup so it should be reactible, yet you won’t react to it if you don’t expect it. Also the position works too. Her overhead Has midscreen range so you don’t expect someone to use it up close
    Corruption100 likes this.
  16. SaltShaker

    SaltShaker In Zoning We Trust

    NaCl man, wsj515, VSC_Supreme and 3 others like this.
  17. I think i’ve got 3 problems
    1- I fucking jump and trying to fix that
    2- Playing wifi is the worst mistake but I can’t play wired yet
    3- The game goes too fast I can't think of the strategy or react to some things maybe because I play against people who are better with me. I don’t play with beginners.
    Any tips?
  18. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    Don't blame the game.
    NaCl man likes this.
  19. Doesn’t help. I never blamethe game. I said it goes too fast meaning my reaction is slow to adapt abd make right decisions but only when I play pros.
    NaCl man likes this.
  20. NaCl man

    NaCl man Mishima boiz

    NaCl man82
    if you are getting put into situations that you cant react to you have to analyze how you are getting put into that situation. Avoid the situation you cant react to.
    Eddy Wang likes this.
  21. Thanks for the advice
    Eddy Wang and NaCl man like this.
  22. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    It means i you see whatever the fuck is coming at 15 to 16 frames, but it takes an extra time for your brain to process what you see indentify it and press the right button to "react" accordingly to that specific scenario, so this extra time it takes to process and take the right action its what is called Reaction time, and you can't do that on 15 ro 16 frames because that's the time its taking for you to see what is happening, let alone react to an overhead that comes out in 12 frames or 13.

    At best some people expect it and the second they see a twich of a certain animation they react to it before even recodnize 100% what move is coming out, Tekken takes advantage of this and has moves with similar animation twiches to piss you off, so even if you know its coming, it might actually be a different move, a low in case you are expecting a mid, and a mid in case you are expecting a low.

    Yesterday on the stress test, i faced this Skarlet who was always teleporting after i forcing him out by outzoning him and then intentionally stop zoning to bait a teleport, and he every time on pure habits kept teleporting right into my mid attacks, after a few victories in a row, he started teleporting and appearing on the same spot, i still reacted to the teleport by pressing 2 because i reacted to the teleport startup twich animation, but once he appeared on the same spot i immediately stopped, meaning i was able to react to the sudden change specially because he doesn't change positions, if i was simply guessing i would mash 212 and he would have whiff punished me on the spot.
    Corruption100 likes this.

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