General/Other - Mileena Piercing vs Ravenous vs Ethereal : The Breakdown

[Blonde_Huntress]

Piercing : The Empress utilizes her weapon of choice, the sai. She gains Low Sai, as well as additional range on some of her normal attacks.

Ravenous : The Empress capitalizes on her Tarkatan aggression and blood lust. She gains High and Low Pounce, as well as a regenerative combo.

Ethereal : The Empress hones her ability to evade and teleport. She gains Fades to teleport across the stage and to confuse her adversaries.

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With all 3 of the Empress' variations viable now, I've wanted to make a thread that really defines and differentiates these styles.

The weaknesses versus the others, the strengths--what appeals to you with your main variation that the others just don't have? Why is your variation better than the other two?

I'm calling on any and all Mileenas to help add to the knowledge pool here.

 

[TheGabStandard]

I was an Ethereal main from day 1 due to the aesthetic appeal of Fades and the potential of her mixups seemed to be really good. But as we all know her Fades turned out to be.....a little underwhelming to put it kindly. So after a month of sticking it out I then switched to Piercing.

I found Piercing to be solid as the extra range from a couple of her strings made playing footsies for me more easier than the other variations. Along with the damage output and B212+4 being a shoutout to her MK2 fatality (favourite of all time ) it was the go to variation for me after the disappointment of Ethereal.

Ravenous I feel is great but at the moment it just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe if really delved deep into the variation I would enjoy it more, which I will probably do in the near future.

While I do love Piercing it does have issues regarding the inconsistency of F12 on a number of characters in the roster which makes the oki game very tricky to play. Due to the youth of the game Mileenas have been getting away with 2 whiffing but eventually we will start getting punished hard for using that string. In the long run I can see that harming the variation significantly.

For now I will stick with Piercing as the go to variation but with the recent buffs I will likely switch back to Ethereal being my main variation in a few weeks.

 

[LionHeart]

Piercing is the go to variation for me.
Low Sai and buffed b12 string are just too good to not have them in the current MKX meta.
You can play Piercing completely safe, never taking risks, and win. Just plain footsies / whiff punishing is enough for Piercing Mileena to win. You can OS most unsafe stuff if you really want to rush down. Extra dmg of b212+4 string is an added bonus.

I've recently been playing Ravenous but it feels incomplete. I have a difficult time getting in and I don't feel it covers any bad MUs that Piercing has (if anything it makes them even worse, LOL). It's definitely the most fun variation, though.

Ethereal, I'm still not convinced its viable. Its very expensive to use. And the opponent can just block like they would block the other variations. Lacking a meterless OH starter is enough for Ethereal to not pose an extra thread, IMO. Best thing this variation has, is you get outta corner pressure by using a bar while being completely safe.

 

[TheGabStandard]

Piercing is the go to variation for me.
Low Sai and buffed b12 string are just too good to not have them in the current MKX meta.
You can play Piercing completely safe, never taking risks, and win. Just plain footsies / whiff punishing is enough for Piercing Mileena to win. You can OS most unsafe stuff if you really want to rush down. Extra dmg of b212+4 string is an added bonus.

I've recently been playing Ravenous but it feels incomplete. I have a difficult time getting in and I don't feel it covers any bad MUs that Piercing has (if anything it makes them even worse, LOL). It's definitely the most fun variation, though.

Ethereal, I'm still not convinced its viable. Its very expensive to use. And the opponent can just block like they would block the other variations. Lacking a meterless OH starter is enough for Ethereal to not pose an extra thread, IMO. Best thing this variation has, is you get outta corner pressure by using a bar while being completely safe.

Can't believe I didn't even mention Low Sai...epic fail

 

[Anseyf]

Mileena in general:
Good reversals, good counterzoning, good mixups, awesome armor launcher, good punishing and decent anti-air

Piercing:
Even better counterzoning, great footsies

Ravenous:
Even better mix-ups, making unsafe strings safe with pounce (an advantage I find to great to give up)

Ethereal:
Mind-games against inexperienced players, ex-teleports are really awesome but still not a better use of meter than ex-roll imo. That said you wake-up safe and free with ex-teleport which should not be underestimated.

All together I think Ravenous is the best being most capable to keep up pressure and keeping the mix-ups fresh and unpredictable. Piercing is of course great but counterzoning isn't a great factor with zoning being nearly non existent in this game. The better footsies may be usefull but even with that you're still worse of than most of the characters.
And even with the buffs I fear Ethereal remains gimmicky at best.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Ethereal - On it's own, EX Fade is one of the best moves in the game. It just happens that the rest of Ethereal is just not up to par. Lowest damage.
Ravenous - Only variation with a meterless "overhead". Best damage. High pounce is semi-safe, but the best chars can punish it somehow.
Piercing - Has 50/50s in specials, but lacks safety. Best anti-zoning, best pokes/footsies, decent damage. F12 still whiffs sometimes.

At this point, I feel as though Mileena is potentially one of the worst characters, while also seeming like one of the best. The biggest strength Mileena does have which gets overlooked, (even by me), is her ability to make people seize up block a lot mid screen. Telekick & Roll are both scary tools when applied correctly, and especially if she has a life lead. But of course, they are death on block. And such is the dilemma. THIS is why she appears fine to anyone who doesn't main her. If you play her like the AI, she looks near unbeatable.

Mileena in this game is... I have a few ideas, but I don't 100% know what buffs she can get to become a straight up "good" character. (what is her problem at the core? Range? Block Adv? etc) ...BUT, I also think playing AGAINST her feels way harder than it should, considering you already know where her weaknesses are from playing AS her.

 

[LionHeart]

Why do you guys feel like Piercing HAS to commit to unsafe stuff? I don't get it.

You can pressure with 21(Roll)u4 OS, d3, d4, 12, 123, b12 and hit confirm into full combo. You don't HAVE to be unsafe. You don't HAVE to mix them up. You can keep 'em out with decent zoning, spacing, footsies and punish THEIR unsafe attempts to get in (be it jumps, bad spaced normals/strings etc.). You just have to be VERY on point.... Don't mess up or you'll get bodied.

As such, I can't put Piercing below Ravenous, as the latter will get unsafe at some point.

The only struggle both Piercing and Ravenous have in common, is getting out of the corner and, if it gets to this, both variations will have to do something unsafe to get out. I feel that Ravenous gets cornered more often that Piercing, on the other hand.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Why do you guys feel like Piercing HAS to commit to unsafe stuff? I don't get it.

You can pressure with 21(Roll)u4 OS, d3, d4, 12, 123, b12 and hit confirm into full combo. You don't HAVE to be unsafe. You don't HAVE to mix them up. You can keep 'em out with decent zoning, spacing, footsies and punish THEIR unsafe attempts to get in (be it jumps, bad spaced normals/strings etc.). You just have to be VERY on point.... Don't mess up or you'll get bodied..

Hence why I said, "play like the AI and she looks unbeatable", lol. Anyway, I also feel Piercing to be strongest overall. (Would definitely be if F12 was consistent.) It's not that she has to be played "randomly unsafe", but EX Roll is a necessity in her game without a meterless fast overhead. Throws are fine and all, but EX Roll is where you're gonna ultimately open people up for the D3/D4s and so on.

21u4 OS is ok, but armor discourages over reliance. Also, I don't think her range, even in Piercing is as good as a lot of characters. So it's arguable that she's "unsafe" even at -6 or -7 since the stronger chars' pressure tends to trump hers. Her "risky mixups" can be used to try to help her pressure game a bit.

 

[MadeFromMetal]

Don't mess up or you'll get bodied.

I feel like this applies to life in general.

 

[ExpiredCodes]

I would pick Ravenous but I feel too naked without my baby girl Low Sai. As for Ethereal, I'm not too sure I'd call it viable even with the buffs. It's obviously way better than before (still can't believe EX Fade didn't do anything) but it just feels too meter dependent at the moment. EX Fade is a great tool but EX Roll is really important for Mileena so it feels like the whole match you're just scrambling for meter and spending it immediately. Plus you're giving up a whole lot of damage compared to the other 2 variations.

 

[TheGabStandard]

Mileena in this game is... I have a few ideas, but I don't 100% know what buffs she can get to become a straight up "good" character. (what is her problem at the core? Range? Block Adv? etc) ...BUT, I also think playing AGAINST her feels way harder than it should, considering you already know where her weaknesses are from playing AS her.

What ideas do you have? I'm curious to hear them

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Combos in Ravenous is funnier because 1. you can always so which side to throw people on when choosing combo enders and 2. you can choose to sacrifice 1-2% damage (based on starters) to get 2.5% heal
And I think Ravenous has better damage out of ex roll. I can do [anything] ex roll, run B34 air sai, run B2 high pounce consistently and I got more damage than doing ex roll, njp + enders

The only struggle both Piercing and Ravenous have in common, is getting out of the corner and, if it gets to this, both variations will have to do something unsafe to get out.

If you got knocked down in the corner then:
First step: make them respect ex roll
Second step: wake up throw

 

[TheGabStandard]

And I think Ravenous has better damage out of ex roll. I can do [anything] ex roll, run B34 air sai, run B2 high pounce consistently and I got more damage than doing ex roll, njp + enders

What is the damage output from that Ravenous combo?

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

What is the damage output from that Ravenous combo?

I forgot lol I just discovered it today. Tomorrow I will play offline with my friends and I'll try all combo options after ex roll. For some reason I dropped combos a lot on Goro and F/T (very weird, it's not because their hitbox it's because they got pushed further when I hit them with normals). I need to make sure that those combos work on small female characters as well.
I also have a easy-to-time F3 combo without running: F343 telekick air sai, B2 roll, walk forward a bit, B121+3/B12 high pounce low pounce/F23 high pounce low pounce. The best part about the B2 in that combo is: you don't even need to run to make B2 hit, and B2 roll input is very easy (pressing B2D4 quickly will do

 

[ZeroEffect]

What ideas do you have? I'm curious to hear them

Lol, well I've already mentioned some of them before. (stand 3 Overhead, IAS combo, faster startup on reg Fade, High pounce 100% safe on block, etc) As for some problems I see now...

-Piercing's NJ2 should be across the board. (Ethereal/Ravenous doesn't have the sai range... drops combos occasionally.)
- Better backdash, seriously it's bad.
- Safer F4/F44. Knee should be safe since it has a gap. F4 should be safe enough to bait said gap, or at least recover if they wait for knee.
- Roll should beat low kicks consistently. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. Should also correctly low profile grabs.
- Hell, what if Roll was 1-2f faster to punish gaps in blockstrings better? Just an idea.

Maybe stand sai being safe on block. This one is just a preference, more so than needed. And it is duckable anyway.

Still, if the core problem is range, not much can be done without changing animations entirely. (ie: her D1 using a sai poke like Mr. Mileena once said.)
If the core problem is block advantage, stuff like F23 and 21 could be made really low negative. But it'd still be hard to keep her playing the same without changing her into a block pressure mixup machine like the better chars.

 

[ZeroEffect]

I would pick Ravenous but I feel too naked without my baby girl Low Sai. As for Ethereal, I'm not too sure I'd call it viable even with the buffs. It's obviously way better than before (still can't believe EX Fade didn't do anything) but it just feels too meter dependent at the moment. EX Fade is a great tool but EX Roll is really important for Mileena so it feels like the whole match you're just scrambling for meter and spending it immediately. Plus you're giving up a whole lot of damage compared to the other 2 variations.

I'll play more Ethereal next a get a chance, but it seems like you almost don't need EX Roll defensively since EX Fade will give a combo for whiff punishing as opposed to armoring through. EX Roll for overhead is still useful, but it's not as relied on like in Piercing/Ravenous imo. If reg Fade had better startup you could possibly use it to generate meter from a distance safely.

 

[TheGabStandard]

Lol, well I've already mentioned some of them before. (stand 3 Overhead, IAS combo, faster startup on reg Fade, High pounce 100% safe on block, etc) As for some problems I see now...

-Piercing's NJ2 should be across the board. (Ethereal/Ravenous doesn't have the sai range... drops combos occasionally.)
- Better backdash, seriously it's bad.
- Safer F4/F44. Knee should be safe since it has a gap. F4 should be safe enough to bait said gap, or at least recover if they wait for knee.
- Roll should beat low kicks consistently. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. Should also correctly low profile grabs.
- Hell, what if Roll was 1-2f faster to punish gaps in blockstrings better? Just an idea.

Maybe stand sai being safe on block. This one is just a preference, more so than needed. And it is duckable anyway.

Still, if the core problem is range, not much can be done without changing animations entirely. (ie: her D1 using a sai poke like Mr. Mileena once said.)
If the core problem is block advantage, stuff like F23 and 21 could be made really low negative. But it'd still be hard to keep her playing the same without changing her into a block pressure mixup machine like the better chars.

Slightly increased start up on Fade and High Pounce being safe on block is definitely reasonable.

I can understand the idea of Piercing's NJP being across the board but I've never had a problem with combos or range in Ethereal. Do others have an issue?

100% agree with improving her backdash

F44 I agree with as well. I don't get how a string can have a gap and essentially be full combo punished by some of the cast. I'm not sure if another character has a string like that.

Low profiles to roll are fine

I don't think Roll should be faster as 8 frames is pretty quick already. However I might be seeing it through the eyes of Mileena being "fine" and "fair" and not "good/great".

I personally am not sure what her issues are. She seems to be a fair character in an unfair game. She has tools that allow her to play "in theory" a number of styles but doesn't really excel in any. I do think block advantage and general frames are an issue compared to the cast. Most of her pokes are north of 10 frames which isn't devastating, but when you see a number of characters having normals at 6-9 frames it can be an issue in the neutral game.

 

[ZeroEffect]

I personally am not sure what her issues are. She seems to be a fair character in an unfair game. She has tools that allow her to play "in theory" a number of styles but doesn't really excel in any. I do think block advantage and general frames are an issue compared to the cast. Most of her pokes are north of 10 frames which isn't devastating, but when you see a number of characters having normals at 6-9 frames it can be an issue in the neutral game.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Her tools are fair, but also carry scary utility. Telekick is a full screen punish/anti-air, Roll is one of the best anti-zone/anti-jump/wakeup moves. (If Telekick were safe she'd be insta-broke, lol).

Ethereal's NJP has whiffed for me during certain combos with a late Roll where in Piercing it'd hit. I've also done instant NJP in Piercing and it beats out a few things that Ethereal's can't. It's not a huge problem, but I still think this NJP should be universal. Piercing still has enough unique tools.

For me it's more her block frames than startup. D1 at 9f is slow for a D1, but still quick enough to interrupt. Many characters have mid strings that are -1,-2, 0, or even PLUS on block. (Scorpion FBC, Jax, Jacqui, Liu, etc). Mileena's safest non-high string is -5 I believe? EX Roll is invaluable here to scare people into letting you keep attacking. (It's a damn good move for it too.) But having plus frames forces opponents to gamble THEIR meter instead.

 

[God'sgift888]

All i want is a better backdash.. i don't use my mileena as a rushdown character at all. I bait and punish. However, my legs on my back dash get caught so much. I figured a amazing backdash for a character that can be locked down by pressure and is wildly unsafe is only fair.

 

[Crimea]

she is too fair for her bitchy nature. Fuck f3, let's make her f2 overhead! Empress deserves this *devilsmile*

 

[ZeroEffect]

she is too fair for her bitchy nature. Fuck f3, let's make her f2 overhead! Empress deserves this *devilsmile*

God... that would be unreal.

 

[Blonde_Huntress]

The Empress really needs some buffs--and it was made apparent in the recent Tier List thread. I've hounded on some of these in past, as have others.

Gimme:
-Faster F3 (also counted as an overhead on a set frame once it starts up).
-Roll as a low (perhaps Telekick as an overhead as well). I seriously don't think this makes her OP, given some of the bullsh!t other characters have.
-Slightly faster regular fades (Ethereal).
-Fixed hit box on F12 (Piercing).
-Slightly larger health gain off Quick Taste (Ravenous).
-Faster normals (any buffs here are welcomed).

I'm trying to stay realistic about what can be changed, given some of the other changes she's received in past patches. I sadly don't see low sai being a universal move--I guess that's just a perk to using Piercing.

 

[TheGabStandard]

The Empress really needs some buffs--and it was made apparent in the recent Tier List thread. I've hounded on some of these in past, as have others.

Gimme:
-Faster F3 (also counted as an overhead on a set frame once it starts up).
-Roll as a low (perhaps Telekick as an overhead as well). I seriously don't think this makes her OP, given some of the bullsh!t other characters have.
-Slightly faster regular fades (Ethereal).
-Fixed hit box on F12 (Piercing).
-Slightly larger health gain off Quick Taste (Ravenous).
-Faster normals (any buffs here are welcomed).

I'm trying to stay realistic about what can be changed, given some of the other changes she's received in past patches. I sadly don't see low sai being a universal move--I guess that's just a perk to using Piercing.

F3 is dependent how fast you want it to be. To be honest if I personally wanted it buffed I would want it maybe at most 25f start up (like Scorpions F4) so the damage output stays the same. Any faster than that then certain properties like damage and block advantage would have to change.

I agree with all the others except Roll being a low. I cannot agree with that as that would be too OP. Firstly as an opponent if he/she knocks Mileena down while she has meter the reward for knocking Mileena down is a 50/50 guess of whether Mileena will wake up low or OH roll knowing that guessing wrong will cost that person close to 30% damage into Mileena's own oki.

Secondly as soon as she has meter, every string and most normals that an opponent blocks becomes guess city. As an example you knock someone down and you do F1. F1 crushes armour so you can't wake up. If blocked then you can do the following:

F1 xx Roll (low) or EX Roll (OH)
F12 xx Roll or EX Roll
F12B4 xx Roll or EX Roll
F14 xx Roll or EX Roll
F143

The amount of guessing of whether rolls are coming or the string will continue just is too much for me. All those options from a blocked F1 is pretty crazy. I do understand people have crazy BS in this game but that buff would make Mileena monstrous in my eyes as I don't think any character can turn every string into a 50/50 essentially at all times.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I think Ravenous is just as good as Piercing honestly. The healing of her B12~bite is really good.
If you need to keep your oponent away end combos with B12~bite, it heals you and pushes your oponent away fullscreen. If you need to mix-them up end combos with her grabs. She can play footsies safely as well and her AAs are universal. You can play ravenous safe as well. If she needs to take damage off you of course she's going to get risky, but that's in piercing as well.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

I got these combos to share. I only do with naked ex roll. You can always add normals before the ex roll for mixup
naked ex roll, run, B34 air sai, run B2 high pounce = 29%. Not too hard to do, works on everyone
naked ex roll, run, B34 air sai, run B22 high pounce = 30%. The B22 high pounce is the hardest part, I dropped in a lot on Kitana and F/T (yes doing this combo on F/T is harder than on Subzero).
B2 got buffed in Ravenous and Ethereal (startup is now 13 frame). This helps a lot to improve combo damage
B12 will not hit in those combos so if you want to heal yourself with B12 you should do ex roll, walk forward njp, B12throw UU4 = 25% +2.5% heal
After ex roll instead of run you can walk forward a bit and B34 air sai still hits. Be careful with small characters

In piercing the only thing I can do consistently is: naked ex roll, njp, B212+4 = 27%. So can I say that Ravenous outdamages Piercing with ex roll?