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Patch suggestions for Sub-Zero

G11OST

Noob
I like and want the changes. However I still don't see how it helps with some of these match ups he has. WoWo, Batman, and Aqua probably some others idk about, but he's just easily counter picked I think.
I don't understand the wowo match at all
Why can a shield pierce the clone but a damn bullet or anything else can't.
Mb iceball should beat everything as will or at least trade with other mb projectiles
 

G11OST

Noob
the saddest part about this is the similar threads thing down below.
I don't see a problem. Incoming patch, discussions are being had, NRS will decide for themselves with a combination of their own testers and a little community feed back. Seems like normal business on a FGC site.

I'm happy
 
I agree with most of this. However, I would disagree with the idea that the command grab should stay as is. Changing the command grab into a mid special would give him access to a d1 special that requires meter to extend into a full combo. Just about every character in the game has that, so it's not overpowered.

Yes, it would also give him access to meterless damage in the corner when used in conjunction with the clone, but thats ok for two reasons. Number 1, he wont be able to put up clone and use plus frames due to the fact that his plus frames cpme from ex db1 (which will shatter the clone) or clone toss. The only other plus frames he can get on block is off his f3 or b3 (which is universal) Secondly, meterless damage in the corner using the clone is a far cry from meterless damge other characters get from specials and launching normals they have. Black Adam black magic, Harley tantrum stance, Atro with dex, hell Superman's f23. So, Sub needing to have the opponent in the corner, land a hit, and hit confirm into the special, while the clone is active, is NOT overpowered.

Lastly I would add that his iceball is too slow. The normal one is a 25 frame start up high that moves slow asf. Making it a basically useless projectile. The meterburn version is just as slow, making it incredibly difficult to use in counter zoning because of getting hit out of the start up and opponents being able to easily recover before the slow moving projectile reaches them. Solution: Normal iceball start up frames reduced to 17. This is the same start up as green lanterns projectile. However, the projectile itself will still travel slower. This, by default will make his meterburn versions start up faster. Next, SLIGHTLY increase the travel speed of the meterburn iceball.

Mkx subs iceball was slow, but the trade off was it would freeze on trade. Now that it doesn't freeze, its just simply the worst projectile in the game by far. And the mkx sub ex iceball start up was faster due to it being a ex move instead of a meterburn move. They didn't so anything to compensate the character for the changes necessary for him to work in Injustice 2.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
I don't see a problem. Incoming patch, discussions are being had, NRS will decide for themselves with a combination of their own testers and a little community feed back. Seems like normal business on a FGC site.

I'm happy
Better hold a small casket on this. I don't know if they read TYM at all. If they keep nerfing the already nerfed chars and buff the already OP chars, then they're most likely smoke a lot of weed and got stoned.

Experience from MK9 and MKX talks here.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Give Him the mid command grab. The opponent needs something to fear when clone It's out.
This one would be lit to grab even those who crouch without blocking to whiff the PP. I would think of this combo:

IK, (J3), 123xxPP, techroll, F3, j2/1, 123xxPP. 35(37)%/348(368)HP

Have done it in practice.
 

Lokheit

Noob
While we're at it, can Iceball (meterless) at least be plus enough for a follow up jail? +4 for one of the slowest high projectiles in the game that is full combo punishable and you still have time to go grab a coffee looks tooooooo bad. Other moves with similar startup are safer and +20 so it wouldn't be crazy... and come on, I know you don't want it to freeze but it's an iceball, at least give some decent plus frames!
 
I don't understand the wowo match at all
Why can a shield pierce the clone but a damn bullet or anything else can't.
Mb iceball should beat everything as will or at least trade with other mb projectiles
WoWo is cancer for Sub. I could be wrong but I don't think Sub has an answer to air shields. He has to get her to the corner and that's where Tom's gameplan comes in but you need bar. I sit fullscreen and zone for bar then try to push WoWo to the corner where you can control her.

WoWo loves to poke so I think f2 stagger works in making her negative and giving yourself another turn to push. Just never f22 or f22 klone lol klone is useless mid screen against her.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
it's pretty obvious what i meant when i said "on hit"
I just wanted to make sure, no big deal.

Better hold a small casket on this. I don't know if they read TYM at all. If they keep nerfing the already nerfed chars and buff the already OP chars, then they're most likely smoke a lot of weed and got stoned.

Experience from MK9 and MKX talks here.
This might have been true for only some chars, but a lot of chars got the proper treatment, looking back at the history of MKX patches.
 
A lot of people want dbf 1 to be a throw but posting it here won't get you anywhere tbh. Idk if the right choice is to change it or not, but Tom won't argue for it because he doesn't want MKX Sub. Which is fine, I just don't think you'll find an argument for it on this thread.
 

RyuKazuya

Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
I knew that the patch wishlist for Sub would hit.

I will agree with all of them, but...

1) Make the Command Grab, known as Polar Puncture, a MID, so that it CAN grab both juggling and crouching characters. And change the fucking input. It's hard, and makes me success it 6/10.
I really think that the cmd grab input is not hard at all and should not be changed. A few people who are struggling with the input do not justify a change imho. The execution in this game is dumbed down already. No offense.

I cannot immagine Super motions in sf being changed just because a few players have problems with it. Its a fighting game and fighting games take practice and execution.
 

G11OST

Noob
A lot of people want dbf 1 to be a throw but posting it here won't get you anywhere tbh. Idk if the right choice is to change it or not, but Tom won't argue for it because he doesn't want MKX Sub. Which is fine, I just don't think you'll find an argument for it on this thread.

Why not tho?

Reasons not to be made a mid

#1 Meterless unlockable situation in corner with clone and plus frames

Arguments
  • only on knockdown does sub zero get the clone setup with plus frames. Opponent still can wakeup but risk getting punished. Still pretty good.
  • Only plus frames on block will be from f3, this can be countered by various options
  • F2 2 smash will shatter the clone on block making the set up not work.
  • Clone has recharge during combos which means it can not be looped.
#2 free good damage from a poke

Arguments


  • Many character can cancel into good damage from poke to special. This is nothing new
  • Will need to spend a meter
  • Damage scaling
  • Not all poked will cancel into grab on hit or block, will be able to be punished on read

If there's still a threat that mid grab will be too strong, make clone disappear when grabbed and add more recovery to the grab to punish it hard on whiffed tick throws

So like I said why not?
 

kcd117

Noob
Mid command grab would be dumb. He doesn't need that, he's way more interesting as a trapper than as a braindead 50/50 character. Having options to lock your opponent in the corner with pressure and force them to make the right read on you to get out instead of having to guess on 50/50s is a much better character design.
Balance issues aside, my main problem with command grab being a mid is that I don't like 50/50 guessing game, it made me stay away from sub in mkx, and I really like his design in this game, so I don't want the character to dumbed down. They could take a lot of good stuff from sub zero to make his command grab a mid and try to balance it out, but at the end of the day I would rather play a character that makes me rely on my reading and conditioning capabilities to work than on a command throw 50/50. Making this kinda changes over tom's changes wouldn't make the character better, it would just make him dumber.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
I really think that the cmd grab input is not hard at all and should not be changed. A few people who are struggling with the input do not justify a change imho. The execution in this game is dumbed down already. No offense.

I cannot immagine Super motions in sf being changed just because a few players have problems with it. Its a fighting game and fighting games take practice and execution.
The argument for changing the input mainly comes from the fact that his command grab isn't really even a command grab. You can't tick it, it's a high and whiffs on crouching opponents. It's pretty useless and only functions as a juggle combo ender.
 
Why not tho?

Reasons not to be made a mid

#1 Meterless unlockable situation in corner with clone and plus frames

Arguments
  • only on knockdown does sub zero get the clone setup with plus frames. Opponent still can wakeup but risk getting punished. Still pretty good.
  • Only plus frames on block will be from f3, this can be countered by various options
  • F2 2 smash will shatter the clone on block making the set up not work.
  • Clone has recharge during combos which means it can not be looped.
#2 free good damage from a poke

Arguments


  • Many character can cancel into good damage from poke to special. This is nothing new
  • Will need to spend a meter
  • Damage scaling
  • Not all poked will cancel into grab on hit or block, will be able to be punished on read

If there's still a threat that mid grab will be too strong, make clone disappear when grabbed and add more recovery to the grab to punish it hard on whiffed tick throws

So like I said why not?
People will think its scrubby which makes me want it to happen, because there's already enough scrubby shit going on. Either way I'm not arguing for or against it but I know Tom's video exclusively said not to make the change so he won't argue for it. All I'm saying is if you want it changed you'll have to find a new thread lol
 

G11OST

Noob
People will think its scrubby which makes me want it to happen, because there's already enough scrubby shit going on. Either way I'm not arguing for or against it but I know Tom's video exclusively said not to make the change so he won't argue for it. All I'm saying is if you want it changed you'll have to find a new thread lol
Tom is only 1 player
He's a good one at that too
But his word is not gospel

I think discussing patch suggestions in a patch suggestion thread is ideal, wouldn't u?
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
Well with the patch slated for tomorrow, how's everybody feeling about Sub getting some help? I fear they didn't have enough time :/
 

G11OST

Noob
Well with the patch slated for tomorrow, how's everybody feeling about Sub getting some help? I fear they didn't have enough time :/
My fortune cookie said luck is coming your way so either

the wife is in heat

Imma get a substantial growth in my income

... Or a video game character in a video game i play will become better


Hmm... idk man lol
We'll see how it plays out
Don't doubt the power of the mighty fortune cookie
 
Tom is only 1 player
He's a good one at that too
But his word is not gospel

I think discussing patch suggestions in a patch suggestion thread is ideal, wouldn't u?
Fair enough. Personally the argument for it is much stronger than against I think. Sub has a hard time opening people up and maybe he's not suppose to. Maybe they want him to stay a whiff punisher. But I think he needs it, because as of right now there is no way to enforce a threat with it.

Tom's strategy even in corner can get blown up by a d2 amongst some character's so the likelyhood of continuing pressure without ending up unsafe at some point is small.

Also hit confirming f22 is so needlessly tedious. It needs to be safe. He needs the command throw to compete I think. Whether it makes him braindead idc, he doesn't have his overhead anyway. The real question is, can we get scarecrow recovery frames for our command throw? Lol