What's new

Patch reaction

Ok so they can correct the frame data and say it's a high or like I said before, increase the hitbox of the 2nd hit of the string. Either way, it works as it should be in terms of the hitbox and hurtbox. Yes, they change it, but it works is is supposed to.
No it doesn't lol. One thing definitively states what the move does. A hitbox/hurtbox is entirely aesthetic. How a character model looks or breathes shouldn't effect how a basic concept like a mid works.

Again though I'd be fine if they just replaced mid with high or some kind of shrug emoji.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
@Roy Arkon
My whole post was about hit and hurtboxes lol
No, all you did was just talking about the general definitions of the different types of attacks and what they should do on paper. As I showed you in my response, frame data, attack type and hitbox/hurtbox don't necessarily go together, as the frame data, like you see in that string, doesn't go with the hitbox and hurtbox of the characters.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
The "mid" part is just a labeling issue. If it was labeled "high" it would still be inconsistent because now we have a high attack contacting half the roster while they're crouching. Which highs don't do.

The point is that these games have multiple (and sometimes varying) hurt-/hit-boxes while simply labeling moves as high, mid, low.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
No it doesn't lol. One thing definitively states what the move does. A hitbox/hurtbox is entirely aesthetic. How a character model looks or breathes shouldn't effect how a basic concept like a mid works.

Again though I'd be fine if they just replaced mid with high or some kind of shrug emoji.
Aesthetic isn't related to htiboxes and hurtboxes, that's relate to the character model and how it looks and moves, as well as the overall graphics in the game.

And once again, why are you guys making so much noise about that? If all you need is just to change the frame data to high, then it only goes to show it isn't much of an issue. Are you really that afraid to be mislead by that during an actual match? Then just don't use that string at all. Every character at the end uses only 3--5 strings anyway. And like I said, I have a couple juggle combos that use that string while the opponent is in juggle state:

In the corner:
2,2,3 -> 3,3 -> Command Grab (Can add MB F3 at the beginning).

Supermove Combos:
F3/B3 -> 3,3, -> Supermove

That's it, just use them in juggle combos. Just like you use the Command Grab only in juggle combos or as a combo ender, what's the problem?

The "mid" part is just a labeling issue. If it was labeled "high" it would still be inconsistent because now we have a high attack contacting half the roster while they're crouching. Which highs don't do.

The point is that these games have multiple (and sometimes varying) hurt-/hit-boxes while simply labeling moves as high, mid, low.
There is also such thing as "setups that can work only on specific characters in fighting games", having male characters that have larger hurtboxes then female characters ins't something new. You need to just get over with it. I mean, @Tom Brady himself got over it, why can't you? Is that really that much of an issue?

You guys make too much noise about this, seriously.
 

kcd117

Noob
If they call it a high instead of fixing it they are basically saying the string is useless and is there only for the sake of trolling.
There is no reason to use it in juggles over b23 lol.
 
Aesthetic isn't related to htiboxes and hurtboxes, that's relate to the character model and how it looks and moves, as well as the overall graphics in the game.

And once again, why are you guys making so much noise about that? If all you need is just to change the frame data to high, then it only goes to show it isn't much of an issue. Are you really that afraid to be mislead by that during an actual match? Then just don't use that string at all. Every character at the end uses only 3--5 strings anyway. And like I said, I have a couple juggle combos that use that string while the opponent is in juggle state:

In the corner:
2,2,3 -> 3,3 -> Command Grab (Can add MB F3 at the beginning).

Supermove Combos:
F3/B3 -> 3,3, -> Supermove

That's it, just use them in juggle combos. Just like you use the Command Grab only in juggle combos or as a combo ender, what's the problem?

You make too much noise about this, seriously.
Hurtboxes and hitboxes are generally tied to the model in a way that visually makes sense. The model was designed to be aesthetically pleasing and the animations for the moves were too. I will agree it's not entirely about visual appeal but a lot of it is.

Also I'm not making noise and I kinda dgaf. I'm just saying if I had FGC experience and was new to injustice and I saw I had a move labeled mid and it whiffed on a crouching opponent I'd immediately have to waste an hour of my life labbing it cause that shit don't add up.
 

G11OST

Noob
No, all you did was just talking about the general definitions of the different types of attacks and what they should do on paper. As I showed you in my response, frame data, attack type and hitbox/hurtbox don't necessarily go together, as the frame data, like you see in that string, doesn't go with the hitbox and hurtbox of the characters.
Do I really need to break it down for u cuz I don't want to.... *sigh*

Depending on a "hitbox" properties classifies the move as low, mid, or high. When ducking, a "hurtbox" is made smaller and can low profile high "hitbox" classified moves.

A mid classified "hit box" should reach a lowered ducking "hurtbox", hence why it is classified as a mif.

Again I ask you, what would u call a "hitbox" that changes properties? Mid-high? High-mid?

What's your beef with fixing whiff issues in general anyways? I understand low profiling by lowering your hurtbox even more by sweeping and such, but u should not low profile a mid by low guarding only. That's not how "mid htboxes" are suppose to work.
 

GLoRToR

You're my fan if you can't stop shitposting me.
Hitbox size has been an issue for how many games now? We keep saying it, they keep not fixing it.
I'm still happy that Sub is in this game though.
 

zerosebaz

What's the point of a random Krypt?
NRS should stop labelling the hit regions so everyone would just follow a simple rule: if the move looks like it hits, it should hit. If it looks like it doesn't hit, it shouldn't hit.

That way people would stop asking for a move to hit only because of a label, even though you can see it never touches the opponent.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
NRS should stop labelling the hit regions so everyone would just follow a simple rule: if the move looks like it hits, it should hit. If it looks like it doesn't hit, it shouldn't hit.

That way people would stop asking for a move to hit only because of a label, even though you can see it never touches the opponent.
Well hell, why not just get rid of all the frame data as well? Haha then we can play totally blind!
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
If they call it a high instead of fixing it they are basically saying the string is useless and is there only for the sake of trolling.
There is no reason to use it in juggles over b23 lol.
In the corner it can be used in juggles over B23, in fact it's a bit easier to use in the corner then B23, and as for Supermove combos, it is indeed A LOT more convenient then B23. Only in none-Supermove combos mid-screen it shouldn't be used over B23.

Hurtboxes and hitboxes are generally tied to the model in a way that visually makes sense. The model was designed to be aesthetically pleasing and the animations for the moves were too. I will agree it's not entirely about visual appeal but a lot of it is.

Also I'm not making noise and I kinda dgaf. I'm just saying if I had FGC experience and was new to injustice and I saw I had a move labeled mid and it whiffed on a crouching opponent I'd immediately have to waste an hour of my life labbing it cause that shit don't add up.
Hitboxes and hurtboxes are tied to the model but only in the technical aspect of it as it relates to the size of the of the characters, not the visual aspect of how they look. That is why it is not an aesthetic thing.

And trust me, if I lab for an hour just for ONE hit of ONE string, I would just either ignore that string and go for the other strings or I would just go to a forum, like this, and ask for help, as any beginner should do. And if you are a beginner you would also look for guides on the web, and if you see that the majority don't use a certain string in a a certain scenario there might be reason for it. Not to mention that like I said, you can use that string in juggle combos.

Do I really need to break it down for u cuz I don't want to.... *sigh*

Depending on a "hitbox" properties classifies the move as low, mid, or high. When ducking, a "hurtbox" is made smaller and can low profile high "hitbox" classified moves.

A mid classified "hit box" should reach a lowered ducking "hurtbox", hence why it is classified as a mif.

Again I ask you, what would u call a "hitbox" that changes properties? Mid-high? High-mid?

What's your beef with fixing whiff issues in general anyways? I understand low profiling by lowering your hurtbox even more by sweeping and such, but u should not low profile a mid by low guarding only. That's not how "mid htboxes" are suppose to work.
Technically what you said is true, but hitboxes and hurtboxes are go beyond that labeles of attacks. As I showed in a video in another thread, Deadshot's Deadly Assault is a low projectile, yet Sub-Zero can slide under that projectile if the timing is right. As you can see it in the link below:

https://testyourmight.com/threads/sub-zero-can-slide-under-deadshots-deadly-assault-projectile.64949/

The reason for that is that NRS wanted to give Deadshot a low projectile, and it is indeed a low, as if you block it high, you will get hit, but because of the properties of the projectile and the Slide, Sub-Zero can low-profile under it with a Slide while also closing space as the same time.

Are you gonna come and say NRS should "fix" that as well? Or that the Deadshot community should go and do that? The answer is no, since you can't go by the label of the attack type alone. Same thing for the 3,3 string.

I will even go on and say that now that I think of it, I think that considering that Sub-Zero can Slide under Deadshot's Deadly Assault while some (not everyone) can duck under the 2nd of 3,3, that might be self-character counter balancing thing and nothing more.

Hitbox size has been an issue for how many games now? We keep saying it, they keep not fixing it.
I'm still happy that Sub is in this game though.
These aren't "issues", you only calling that because you want NRS to make it easier for you to understand. Of course there are cases that hitboxes and hurtboxes could change, but not every case is an "issue".

NRS should stop labelling the hit regions so everyone would just follow a simple rule: if the move looks like it hits, it should hit. If it looks like it doesn't hit, it shouldn't hit.

That way people would stop asking for a move to hit only because of a label, even though you can see it never touches the opponent.
No, one of the best thing in NRS/WB games is that they give you the frame data, something that no other company does. It's just that like I said, sometimes the hitboxes and hurtboxes go beyond the attack types.

I will end this argument with this:

Guys you need to calm down, we all need to, Sub-Zero is only out for a few weeks, we aren't sure how strong Sub-Zero can truly be, and once the patch comes out, a lot of characters are gonna be changed and it can change everything including for Sub-Zero, as once the top characters getting nerfed, the lower characters are automatically get buffed. One string that it's hitboxes aren't going one for one with it's attack type isn't gonna kill Sub-Zero, even @Tom Brady himself said that this might have been intentional from the get go. And who knows? Maybe they will change a couple of things on the last second, as the patch isn't out yet. Hell the list of what they did show isn't fully cleared either.

We need to wait and see what happens, let's all just stop right now and just try to discover more stuff about Sub-Zero. I myself already did that in regards to Sub-Zero's Slide vs. Deadshot's Deadly Assault, you guys can do it to.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Premium Supporter
Sub is the newest character in the game and they have probably been working on the patch and may have had it complete or near complete for a while. I am assuming they just had enough time to patch and fix things for mostly the initial roster and Sub was probably never in scope for it.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
There is also such thing as "setups that can work only on specific characters in fighting games", having male characters that have larger hurtboxes then female characters ins't something new. You need to just get over with it. I mean, @Tom Brady himself got over it, why can't you? Is that really that much of an issue?

You guys make too much noise about this, seriously.
Get over what? I don't give two shits about Injustice. It's not my game.

But I did play MK9 where Sub's best normal whiffed on 1/3 the roster. I adjusted my gameplan accordingly and did fine in that game. Doesn't mean it's not a silly inconsistency that frustrates players.

I also played MKX where Sub-Zero couldn't do certain juggles on certain characters. Or if the opponent was crouching when hit with b2 (Which the Sub player couldn't know oftentimes) certain follow-ups would drop. I adjusted my gameplay. Doesn't mean it's not silly.

And it doesn't apply only to Sub-Zero. I'm familiar with learning and adapting. This is more a general concern for all NRS games. Hopefully this type of thing isn't around in future games. Because it's silly.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Get over what? I don't give two shits about Injustice. It's not my game.

But I did play MK9 where Sub's best normal whiffed on 1/3 the roster. I adjusted my gameplan accordingly and did fine in that game. Doesn't mean it's not a silly inconsistency that frustrates players.

I also played MKX where Sub-Zero couldn't do certain juggles on certain characters. Or if the opponent was crouching when hit with b2 (Which the Sub player couldn't know oftentimes) certain follow-ups would drop. I adjusted my gameplay. Doesn't mean it's not silly.

And it doesn't apply only to Sub-Zero. I'm familiar with learning and adapting. This is more a general concern for all NRS games. Hopefully this type of thing isn't around in future games. Because it's silly.
That's not silly as it does happens with other characters and not just Sub-Zero. If you can already adapt to it then it only proves that even more, that's the whole point, we all need to adapt to the character. Not to mention that you don't even play IJ2, which is why I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of it. I will not be surprised if these stuff will be in other games as well. If you can adapt now, you will adapt then, and so all of us will.

Sub is the newest character in the game and they have probably been working on the patch and may have had it complete or near complete for a while. I am assuming they just had enough time to patch and fix things for mostly the initial roster and Sub was probably never in scope for it.
That was probably the case.
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
I didn't bother reading the previous posts but let me make an educated guess... someone showed up to make a case for mids whiffing on crouch block being ok with an added "git gud" for fair measure?
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
That's not silly as it does happens with other characters and not just Sub-Zero. If you can already adapt to it then it only proves that even more, that's the whole point, we all need to adapt to the character. Not to mention that you don't even play IJ2, which is why I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of it. I will not be surprised if these stuff will be in other games as well. If you can adapt now, you will adapt then, and so all of us will.



That was probably the case.
Holy shit.
 

Shaka

Tier Whore.
Sub is the newest character in the game and they have probably been working on the patch and may have had it complete or near complete for a while. I am assuming they just had enough time to patch and fix things for mostly the initial roster and Sub was probably never in scope for it.
congrats you just said what I did in the first post you just worded differently.
 

Slymind

Noob
Sub is the newest character in the game and they have probably been working on the patch and may have had it complete or near complete for a while. I am assuming they just had enough time to patch and fix things for mostly the initial roster and Sub was probably never in scope for it.
Well put. Seems to be the case actually.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Plus the SF and Marvel communities are different communities with some overlap. There is no 'Capcom community' that encompasses both series. Marvel is barely a thing in Asia, where most of the top SF players are.
In Asia people don't give a shit about the new shiny thing. If you go to an arcade in hk/shanghai(yes arcades still exist in Asia) there are like 2-3 sfv sf4 machines and one mvc and like 20-25 kof 98 and a huge ass crowd around them.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
I don't really know why anyone expected changes, your character has barely been out for two weeks.

The inconsistencies are unfortunate sure. But it's hardly the only example of varying pushblock and "special" mids.
 

Bender

Product Manager. xBone tag: I3end3r.
My reaction: seems obvious as he hasn't been tournament legal yet. I'd expect changes to him next patch.

The top tier are being toned down a notch as well, so we'll have to see how the meta pivots
 

G11OST

Noob
In the corner it can be used in juggles over B23, in fact it's a bit easier to use in the corner then B23, and as for Supermove combos, it is indeed A LOT more convenient then B23. Only in none-Supermove combos mid-screen it shouldn't be used over B23.



Hitboxes and hurtboxes are tied to the model but only in the technical aspect of it as it relates to the size of the of the characters, not the visual aspect of how they look. That is why it is not an aesthetic thing.

And trust me, if I lab for an hour just for ONE hit of ONE string, I would just either ignore that string and go for the other strings or I would just go to a forum, like this, and ask for help, as any beginner should do. And if you are a beginner you would also look for guides on the web, and if you see that the majority don't use a certain string in a a certain scenario there might be reason for it. Not to mention that like I said, you can use that string in juggle combos.



Technically what you said is true, but hitboxes and hurtboxes are go beyond that labeles of attacks. As I showed in a video in another thread, Deadshot's Deadly Assault is a low projectile, yet Sub-Zero can slide under that projectile if the timing is right. As you can see it in the link below:

https://testyourmight.com/threads/sub-zero-can-slide-under-deadshots-deadly-assault-projectile.64949/

The reason for that is that NRS wanted to give Deadshot a low projectile, and it is indeed a low, as if you block it high, you will get hit, but because of the properties of the projectile and the Slide, Sub-Zero can low-profile under it with a Slide while also closing space as the same time.

Are you gonna come and say NRS should "fix" that as well? Or that the Deadshot community should go and do that? The answer is no, since you can't go by the label of the attack type alone. Same thing for the 3,3 string.

I will even go on and say that now that I think of it, I think that considering that Sub-Zero can Slide under Deadshot's Deadly Assault while some (not everyone) can duck under the 2nd of 3,3, that might be self-character counter balancing thing and nothing more.



These aren't "issues", you only calling that because you want NRS to make it easier for you to understand. Of course there are cases that hitboxes and hurtboxes could change, but not every case is an "issue".



No, one of the best thing in NRS/WB games is that they give you the frame data, something that no other company does. It's just that like I said, sometimes the hitboxes and hurtboxes go beyond the attack types.

I will end this argument with this:

Guys you need to calm down, we all need to, Sub-Zero is only out for a few weeks, we aren't sure how strong Sub-Zero can truly be, and once the patch comes out, a lot of characters are gonna be changed and it can change everything including for Sub-Zero, as once the top characters getting nerfed, the lower characters are automatically get buffed. One string that it's hitboxes aren't going one for one with it's attack type isn't gonna kill Sub-Zero, even @Tom Brady himself said that this might have been intentional from the get go. And who knows? Maybe they will change a couple of things on the last second, as the patch isn't out yet. Hell the list of what they did show isn't fully cleared either.

We need to wait and see what happens, let's all just stop right now and just try to discover more stuff about Sub-Zero. I myself already did that in regards to Sub-Zero's Slide vs. Deadshot's Deadly Assault, you guys can do it to.

Dude, read my post, both of them. I specifically said that there are moves which lower hurtboxes even lower than crouch blocking, such as some sweeps. That is fine, your hurt box is being lowered intentialy by a move property, there is no problem with this since THE HURTBOX IS GOING LOWER THAN CROUCH BLOCK, u seem to be ignoring this part of my post Idk if to make your argument stronger or whatever but damn, this the 3rd time I gotta say it now.

You are right, its one string, no big deal, but that's not the problem. The problem is this is scrambled all over the game. A mid should hit a crouch block, there is no if's about it. If you crouch block the 1st hit of a string your hurtbox is not changing so why should a character be able to low profile a move? The problem is the size of the hit box on mids are too small in general, probably failed to test strings on smaller hurtbox characters.

How much mid whiffng issues need to exist to be a problem? U still haven't answered my question either, what do u call a move that changes properties? Also I think people are more upset not about 33 but about the stubbornness to see that mids not functioning as mids shouldn't be a thing. This is the one weak spot NRS really has issues with.
 

kcd117

Noob
@Roy Arkon Dude I don't think anyone here is crying over sub not getting any buffs. I think he is fine but they need to fix the stuff that is not working properly. The 33 whiffing issues hurt his game a lot, that is supposed to be an option after mb shoulder (which is also buggy as hell with all that pushback on standing characters) but it whiffs more than it doesn't. consider the fact that it doesn't even combo when cancelled into anything other than slide and you'll see the string has no purpose besides armor breaking, it has +1 advantage on hit, short range and it is not even his most damaging string for juggles (b23 in juggles is a matter of execution, it does more dmg), I'm not asking for a buff here, imo it should combo into iceball and should have more hit adv than 1 frame but I don't mind that as long as he has a mid mid string that works as a mid mid. I wouldn't even mind it not working either if the pushback after mb shoulder wasn't as bad as it is, I would just use 223, but for some odd reason I can't use that if x character decides to block my shoulder standing.
I know they had limited time to work on the character but I bet they would have some "normalizations" ready for him if had he started to look like a strong top tier. I agree it is too early to buff him, even though I think he is gonna end up being low tier at his current state, nobody really knows what he needs rn, but the one thing I'm sure he (or any character) need is to have inconsistent normals/specials that sometimes work and sometimes don't.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
@Roy Arkon Dude I don't think anyone here is crying over sub not getting any buffs. I think he is fine but they need to fix the stuff that is not working properly. The 33 whiffing issues hurt his game a lot, that is supposed to be an option after mb shoulder (which is also buggy as hell with all that pushback on standing characters) but it whiffs more than it doesn't. consider the fact that it doesn't even combo when cancelled into anything other than slide and you'll see the string has no purpose besides armor breaking, it has +1 advantage on hit, short range and it is not even his most damaging string for juggles (b23 in juggles is a matter of execution, it does more dmg), I'm not asking for a buff here, imo it should combo into iceball and should have more hit adv than 1 frame but I don't mind that as long as he has a mid mid string that works as a mid mid. I wouldn't even mind it not working either if the pushback after mb shoulder wasn't as bad as it is, I would just use 223, but for some odd reason I can't use that if x character decides to block my shoulder standing.
I know they had limited time to work on the character but I bet they would have some "normalizations" ready for him if had he started to look like a strong top tier. I agree it is too early to buff him, even though I think he is gonna end up being low tier at his current state, nobody really knows what he needs rn, but the one thing I'm sure he (or any character) need is to have inconsistent normals/specials that sometimes work and sometimes don't.
Did I say anything about crying for buffs? No, I didn't. So don't put words into my mouth. Second of all, you said by yourself it is too early and I also said that and others as well. Not to mention that some characters also got nerfed, that alone already buffs Sub-Zero without giving him any changes too soon after his release. And as for the string, yes it could've been an option for the MB Ice Burst but you still have B23 and F22 for that job as well, and yes B23 deals more damage on juggle but not only it is bit harder to land when you wanna end the combo with the Command Grab but the damage is just one point higher then 3,3. I think that if you're in the corner you should go for for the 3,3 into Command Grab rather then B23. That way you still get the same damage more or less while having a bit easier execution.

Dude, read my post, both of them. I specifically said that there are moves which lower hurtboxes even lower than crouch blocking, such as some sweeps. That is fine, your hurt box is being lowered intentialy by a move property, there is no problem with this since THE HURTBOX IS GOING LOWER THAN CROUCH BLOCK, u seem to be ignoring this part of my post Idk if to make your argument stronger or whatever but damn, this the 3rd time I gotta say it now.

You are right, its one string, no big deal, but that's not the problem. The problem is this is scrambled all over the game. A mid should hit a crouch block, there is no if's about it. If you crouch block the 1st hit of a string your hurtbox is not changing so why should a character be able to low profile a move? The problem is the size of the hit box on mids are too small in general, probably failed to test strings on smaller hurtbox characters.

How much mid whiffng issues need to exist to be a problem? U still haven't answered my question either, what do u call a move that changes properties? Also I think people are more upset not about 33 but about the stubbornness to see that mids not functioning as mids shouldn't be a thing. This is the one weak spot NRS really has issues with.
Yes you talked about lowering the hitboxes while the character crouches, I didn't ignore this part. You just seemed to worry to much about the 2nd hit of the string whiffs as that is a moment when Sub-Zero is on offense and I showed you just like it can happen to Sub-Zero when he's on offense, he can do the same to other characters such as Deadshot.

But the thing is that each character can have it's own hurtbox depending on the size of the character. So if a female character crouches it only make that her hurtbox will become smaller even beyond the hurtbox of crouch blocking male character just because of the overall size of the female character. In MKX the females have smaller hurtbox on juggle combos as well. So for example Pretty Lady Leatherface couldn't get some of his juggle combos on female characters because of this. So yes, technically, a crouching character shouldn't avoid a mid on block, but if the overall hitbox of that character is already smaller then of some other characters, all of the moves should work according to that character's hurtbox.

I won't give it any other type name, all of those moves got their right type, just because the hitbox and hurtbox in some scenarios lead to different result that change anything.

And yes there are more examples of that in the game and previous NRS/WB games, but don't you think that if this thing has happen for so long, that this might have been intentional from the get go? I mean, yeah there might have been some hitbox/hurtbox stuff that weren't suppose to exist originally but if for MKX for example some of those hitbox/hurtboxes still exist after the last patch, then perhaps these things were intentional from the get go, like the example of Reptile in MKX that I brought earlier. You might not like some of these scenarios, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't suppose to happen. You need to adapt to the character and call every single that you don't like an issue. Not to mention that since the patch isn't out yet, NRS can still do a couple of changes at last second. And if they don't it only makes sense because like I and others said, Sub is only a couple of weeks out, unlike Red Hood, so giving him changes now would be too early. And once the patch comes, just the nerfing of the top tiers alone should buff Sub-Zero already.

This argument has gone for far too long. We need to wait until the patch comes out. Period.