Not Jaded - First Impressions on Jade

[GLoRToR]

Jade is an excellent character.
Those who have seen me around in the past 8 years, know how passionate I am about her.
While she's definitely not one of the strongest, she has her strengths.
That said, I'm almost completely content with where she is right now, one small detail aside.
Here's what I think right now.

PROS
Her Emerald Defender variation in particular, I feel, is a zoner which will give Skarlet a run for her money and make anyone without proper get-in tools suffer.
Air Glaive is excellent, very similar to Kabal's air projectile.
Upglaive is an interesting tool as well, though its startup means you can't react with it. You have to anticipate the opponent jumping up but it's also pretty great fullscreen.
Low Blast is solid. It scores a knockback and knockdown if it catches the opponent standing, and it's good to cancel your strings into.

Her Pole Vault is an amazing, safe move that leads to some interesting setups.
Pole Cancels, however, have me confused. They're negative, unlike Kabal's NDC.
The amplify on her Shadow Kick, I don't know how I feel about. I'd rather have her able to teleport around the screen like Scorpion.

CONS
First and foremost b3434 is complete jank. B34 doesn't even exist, you either do a B3 or a B343. Also, it doesn't cancel properly. Somehow you can only cancel before B34 and anything you input after the first 4 will not come out so you have to mash the string and then mash out a special. This is very strange and I hope in a later patch it will get addressed.

Second, the problem I'm having with her.
Unlike the majority of the cast, Jade is High Risk, Low Reward.
She does inferior damage and she's unsafe / slow startup on everything which, together, is a problem.
Her projectiles are slow, her only + on block move is her 4 which is a slow high, her long range moves are punishable etc.
One or the other would be fine because having both high damage and being safe/good frames would make her grow giant teeth and arm blades.

She either needs to be High-Risk High-Reward and do damage.
OR
She needs to be Low-Risk Low-Reward and be 100% safe with excellent frames.

If she stays unsafe, then I feel she'll need to launch on 124 consistently to combo for competitively high, consistently executable damage, no janky shit, no 1f links.
If she stays low damage like she is, I believe she'll need to be between -5 and 0 on block on everything, gapless + on all meterburn moves, also making Shadow Kick 0 on block like it always was and bf2 -5, with a possible option to amplify it to be + on block and launch on hit for medium midscreen combo damage.


Finally, as you can see in this video, her Flawless Block Launcher doesn't have enough range currently. This needs to change. I believe that a staff move would work.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Found myself agreeing with some of this stuff.

ED is a keepaway space control variation, Jaded pole stuff is sub-trash tier. I dont think any thought went into that variation. Either way, both variations are crippled.

I checked out her other abilities (Im pretty sure tournament variations will either become Kustom or get numerous rehauls, so might as well). And I noticed potential to her gameplan, as of now most of her strings have 0 threat, even worse, when she enforces her ability to open people up, the mixup is always in her disadvantage. Sorry to say her up-close offense is useless (this'll become more clear the more shes played). Moving on.

The big problem comes from how important her low projectile is in her pressure OR how UpRang and RazorRang (normal an amped versions) cant be used midstring (on block). b1 and f2 are supposed to be important tools but shes risking full launch (to win a knockdown at most) as soon as she commits to any of these.

Fix? Either make these overheads safe or let her use a low thats safe. Alternatively her Rangs could hit midstring (true on block) but I think that might be too strong.
Good news? She has 2 unused low options that are safe as other abilities (Delias Dance and Vanishing Winds at -7 ONLY if amped). It is so apparent these specials were made with her punishable overheads in mind... only to not include it. What the hell?

Ill say it now.. she NEEDS any of these. She wont get far without it (unless we rely on our opponent not doing their homework or inability to react to a 28fr move).

I dont want more damage for her, she really does not need a juggle-special (shouldnt want it cause how air escapes work anyway). I like her f21 solely as an oki tool but b1 is her ranged mid option.. and its unusable. I wanna be able to use more than 2 strings with her when Im versings chars with unseeable mixups that Jade cant even punish adequately enough.

Also I mentioned the shadow kick and flawless block launcher in general discussion.. they seem in obvious need of fixing. Her wall conversions off Butterfly are unnecessarily hard to link as well..


EDIT: turns out.. TURNS OUT that Delias Dance does not function well with b1 nor does it have range to function with b2. Vanishing winds is a safe teleport that knocks down which im not too fond about..

Now theres also Deadly Assassin which adds a string to b2 with gaps and a mixup situation and a little extra punish damage. Ive yet to really check it out.. but yea... Jades kinda screwed until any sort of changes.

FINAL EDIT: its pole vault. The solution is pole vault.

 

[jadeisblack]

I am having a pretty successful run with Jade and I really like her gameplay. The problem with her, is that she is SUPER unsafe and she does not have the damage to justify it.

There is no reason for Jade to be so unsafe when there are characters that can punish you with easy combos that takes 40% percent of your bar.

I am playing on a older patch cause I am on PC, so I can’t really give a 100% impression on her gameplay, but I also feel that the window for her to do combos is pretty small and the precision is insane for the lack of reward. The only reward is you looking good, but other than that, total lack of damage.

 

[GLoRToR]

I am having a pretty successful run with Jade and I really like her gameplay. The problem with her, is that she is SUPER unsafe and she does not have the damage to justify it.

There is no reason for Jade to be so unsafe when there are characters that can punish you with easy combos that takes 40% percent of your bar.

I am playing on a older patch cause I am on PC, so I can’t really give a 100% impression on her gameplay, but I also feel that the window for her to do combos is pretty small and the precision is insane for the lack of reward. The only reward is you looking good, but other than that, total lack of damage.

Her frame data did not change in the patches at all. You can find hers, and everyone else's current frame data posted here and compare it for yourself as well.
Going forward we'll need some adjustments to F2. i28 is literally not a move you can effectively sell against people who know it's that slow. Or anywhere above i20 for that matter.

 

[mercureXI]

I agree with most of what has been said about her high risk/low reward, etc

One major problem I have with Jade at the moment, besides playing a zoner when half of the cast can teleport now, is her pathetic damage on her punish options.

Her juggle starter is way too slow to punish most things (teleports etc), meaning that not only is Jade a high risk/low reward character, but she turns high risk/high reward characters into medium risk/high reward ones.

Her zoning game isnt strong enough to justify all the problems she has IMO.

Especially in a game where teleports can lead to 40% combos ...

124 should let Jade extend a bit.

Im tired of punishing yolo stuff for 15/20% when I get torn apart when I go for a mixup.

Oh and FFS : change her KBs conditions for her pole vault and nitro kick ...

 

[GLoRToR]

playing a zoner when half of the cast can teleport now,
pathetic damage on her punish options.

Her juggle starter is way too slow to punish most things (teleports etc), meaning that not only is Jade a high risk/low reward character, but she turns high risk/high reward characters into medium risk/high reward ones.

Her zoning game isnt strong enough to justify all the problems she has IMO.

Especially in a game where teleports can lead to 40% combos ...

^ This. So much.
When they said "oh btw Jade has a launcher now" I was like "yeah but it's like 30 frames startup" and everyone was like, "nah she'll be fine".
Nnope.
#glorwasright

 

[THTB]

After a couple more days of playing, I don't mind her low damage too much. It's clearly designed to be her weak point, and I'm fine with it. It is what it is.

I don't think her safety is super pressing either, considering that most of her lack of safety comes off of really long range normals that don't travel forward very far. So when they get blocked, they're generally at ranges the opponent gets, at most, an advancing special, a lot of which don't launch. Playing with that in mind can make the moves more along the lines of medium-risk, low reward. I'm fine with that. Her backstep also moves very fast, so setting up that ideal spacing feels fairly reliable. Up close, she gets a minor 50/50 option in hop punch/f343. 212 puts you at some pretty decent spacing, and can be a decent up-close option to get a little breathing room, and her d4 is very solid, being 10f, -5, active for 5f, recovering in 17f (for comparison, d1 recovers in 14f) and low profiling fairly well (literally avoids f44 from Baraka lol).

AMP air glaive in ED variation being really plus in a lot of situations, for being a downward air projectile, is definitely noteworthy, and a knockdown low projectile is nice for trading and aids in some of her ranged mixups. The fact that her glaives float airborne opponents, too, has worked well in my favor the times I've taken advantage of the scenarios. Also, like a lot of other characters, the meter mechanics really help out ED a lot. Her getup attacks are weak, though, IMO, and it affects her flawless block game, as well.

I'm still getting accustomed to her like everyone else, but these are some of the positive aspects about her, I feel. Not sure where she actually falls...low damage definitely hinders her in terms of comebacks and just keeping up with the damage pace in general, but I also feel like she does a great job of playing the neutral game. Teleports are definitely an issue with her punishes being low-reward. But I definitely am not disappointed with her, right now. We'll see, as the game advances.

 

[jadeisblack]

Jade range is a joke tho when you have a character like Noob Saibot that not only can punish her with his normals that have good range, but he also can get a huge combo with a teleport.

Not to mention that he has a super easy krushing blow that basically takes 1/3 of your life.

Edit: typo

 

[mercureXI]

Still trying to undrstand the big idea behind armored (homing) full screen fatal blows ... why do Erron / Noob / Kabal etc even need such huge advantage over the rest of the cast ?

Some design choices make no sense, balance wise ...

 

[GLoRToR]

After a couple more days of playing, I don't mind her low damage too much. It's clearly designed to be her weak point, and I'm fine with it. It is what it is.

I don't think her safety is super pressing either, considering that most of her lack of safety comes off of really long range normals that don't travel forward very far. So when they get blocked, they're generally at ranges the opponent gets, at most, an advancing special, a lot of which don't launch. Playing with that in mind can make the moves more along the lines of medium-risk, low reward. I'm fine with that. Her backstep also moves very fast, so setting up that ideal spacing feels fairly reliable. Up close, she gets a minor 50/50 option in hop punch/f343. 212 puts you at some pretty decent spacing, and can be a decent up-close option to get a little breathing room, and her d4 is very solid, being 10f, -5, active for 5f, recovering in 17f (for comparison, d1 recovers in 14f) and low profiling fairly well (literally avoids f44 from Baraka lol).

AMP air glaive in ED variation being really plus in a lot of situations, for being a downward air projectile, is definitely noteworthy, and a knockdown low projectile is nice for trading and aids in some of her ranged mixups. The fact that her glaives float airborne opponents, too, has worked well in my favor the times I've taken advantage of the scenarios. Also, like a lot of other characters, the meter mechanics really help out ED a lot. Her getup attacks are weak, though, IMO, and it affects her flawless block game, as well.

I'm still getting accustomed to her like everyone else, but these are some of the positive aspects about her, I feel. Not sure where she actually falls...low damage definitely hinders her in terms of comebacks and just keeping up with the damage pace in general, but I also feel like she does a great job of playing the neutral game. Teleports are definitely an issue with her punishes being low-reward. But I definitely am not disappointed with her, right now. We'll see, as the game advances.

You know I respect you and your opinion but I disagree with you this time.

I find it counter-intuitive to both get blown up for getting your best tools blocked AND get no punish damage whatsoever. While I understand that at your skill level she's "not too bad", let's not allow her to fall behind other characters based on pure opportunism.

She suffered from the same overall surrender from her players such as Krayzie who then proceeded to drop her for Cyrax, and Reo who downright got her further nerfed than how bad she already was and then made sure Kabal went into MK History as the most broken ass character ever. I cannot stand by and watch the game rush past her and I want to see her represented in tournaments, which means she'll need to be high tier, which means she'll either be safe or do damage.

This time around I'd like her to be a powerful character, please.

 

[TaserFace007]

Well, I don't think we'll be seeing her in any tournaments under the current setups, excepting that there are just so many other garbage loadouts in the presets that only a handful of other options could actually be considered good.
If you take the Up Glaive out of her zoning variation and replace it with the Pole Vault, it actually does a decent job of filling some of the holes in her play style and she becomes solidly OK, despite not doing all that much damage. In a month or two when they reverse their silly decision to limit where you can use custom variations, it'll be a good one to try.

 

[GLoRToR]

Well, I don't think we'll be seeing her in any tournaments under the current setups, excepting that there are just so many other garbage loadouts in the presets that only a handful of other options could actually be considered good.
If you take the Up Glaive out of her zoning variation and replace it with the Pole Vault, it actually does a decent job of filling some of the holes in her play style and she becomes solidly OK, despite not doing all that much damage. In a month or two when they reverse their silly decision to limit where you can use custom variations, it'll be a good one to try.

Also someone said she had a teleport, well currently she doesn't lol.

 

[THTB]

You know I respect you and your opinion but I disagree with you this time.

I find it counter-intuitive to both get blown up for getting your best tools blocked AND get no punish damage whatsoever. While I understand that at your skill level she's "not too bad", let's not allow her to fall behind other characters based on pure opportunism.

She suffered from the same overall surrender from her players such as Krayzie who then proceeded to drop her for Cyrax, and Reo who downright got her further nerfed than how bad she already was and then made sure Kabal went into MK History as the most broken ass character ever. I cannot stand by and watch the game rush past her and I want to see her represented in tournaments, which means she'll need to be high tier, which means she'll either be safe or do damage.

This time around I'd like her to be a powerful character, please.

The blowup on her punishable stuff, at the ranges you should be using them, tend to be really minor for the most part, if any at all. Unless I have a good read, I'm not gonna go for options that will get me killed at specific ranges if blocked. That's the whole point of spacing well. And that honestly seems like that's the key problem with a lot of Jades right now. Not playing where she should be playing on the screen.

For the record, I don't think she's a character who doesn't need buffs. Not because I think she's uncompetitive, but because I don't actually know. I'm just playing to find out what she does well and what her actual strengths are, and so far, I do see issues she has as a character, and I see some good points about her. And I think that should be a lot of our approaches instead of writing her off at such an early point in the game's life because we can't find an answer within 8-13 total days of play. We are not fully optimal yet, and we are not 100% comfortable with the game enough to really make conclusive judgements. It's not about me being better than anyone...I could be at the same level as you guys. I could be worse...who knows, I haven't played any of you. I'm not trying to keep her from getting buffed. If she needs it, she needs it, and I won't disagree if it proves to be too much for the character. I just know that that's not something I or anyone else can deduce this early, unless it's something hindering her due to things not working as intended on a programming level. Like her 43 to straight glaive being character specific. That, I feel, should and will be fixed down the road, and would do a lot to address the punishment concerns for her. But overall, I'm just trying to learn and brainstorm.

 

[GLoRToR]

The blowup on her punishable stuff, at the ranges you should be using them, tend to be really minor for the most part, if any at all. Unless I have a good read, I'm not gonna go for options that will get me killed at specific ranges if blocked. That's the whole point of spacing well. And that honestly seems like that's the key problem with a lot of Jades right now. Not playing where she should be playing on the screen.

For the record, I don't think she's a character who doesn't need buffs. Not because I think she's uncompetitive, but because I don't actually know. I'm just playing to find out what she does well and what her actual strengths are, and so far, I do see issues she has as a character, and I see some good points about her. And I think that should be a lot of our approaches instead of writing her off at such an early point in the game's life because we can't find an answer within 8-13 total days of play. We are not fully optimal yet, and we are not 100% comfortable with the game enough to really make conclusive judgements. It's not about me being better than anyone...I could be at the same level as you guys. I could be worse...who knows, I haven't played any of you. I'm not trying to keep her from getting buffed. If she needs it, she needs it, and I won't disagree if it proves to be too much for the character. I just know that that's not something I or anyone else can deduce this early, unless it's something hindering her due to things not working as intended on a programming level. Like her 43 to straight glaive being character specific. That, I feel, should and will be fixed down the road, and would do a lot to address the punishment concerns for her. But overall, I'm just trying to learn and brainstorm.

I understand where you're coming from and I respect it.
Where -I- am coming from is that if my main feels like a Baby Seal trying to fight a Navy Seal when I face off against someone who's basically just using the same 2 strings to beat me because his tools are superior to mine, I'm going to research and point in a direction that I think works without borking the character.

At this moment I believe that Jade needs safety or damage. One or the other. That's how she'll be viable.

And of course that wakeup launcher to reach properly like everyone else's as shown in that vid above.

 

[THTB]

Well, I don't think we'll be seeing her in any tournaments under the current setups, excepting that there are just so many other garbage loadouts in the presets that only a handful of other options could actually be considered good.
If you take the Up Glaive out of her zoning variation and replace it with the Pole Vault, it actually does a decent job of filling some of the holes in her play style and she becomes solidly OK, despite not doing all that much damage. In a month or two when they reverse their silly decision to limit where you can use custom variations, it'll be a good one to try.

Removing up glaive actually takes away from her AA damage (2 xx AMP up glaive), which is one of the areas she can net more than under 200 damage against anyone. And even without using meter, close AAs can result in around 170 damage utilizing up glaive, which is definitely an improvement in AA damage.

It's a trade-off, either way you slice it. Up her AA game to give her more damage opportunities, or add a couple more safe options to her kit.

 

[Kaineghis]

Her supposed place where she needs to be is useless against characters with teleports, specially those one that can punish you with a full combo from it.

I agree that she needs to be high risk/high reward or low risk/low reward, many of her attacks have a really low startup and they can be blocked easily, even her supposed 50/50 once they know her moves.
Also many of the characters that have good zoning tools have teleports, so while you active que phase move they can just teleport behind you.

 

[easy_fresh]

While she can zone out the likes Johnny, Baraka, and characters who have to get in the old fashioned way, with so many teleports on the roster, her zoning game becomes almost non-existant.

Also, she is much more vulnerable when doing her purple move. People can teleport in on reaction, or even hit a dash attack. (it's like she lifts up her hand to say "teleport/attack now")

 

[NinjasNinjas]

Jade is fun to play, she is a character you have to work harder to get the job done. She is well rounded and I think she has the best uppercut in the game, but I see her struggle against teleporting and super aggression.