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Question Nightwings Character Trait too bad?

How hold on, hold on... This is not me bitching about Nightwings underpowered character trait or something like that. The game isn't even out yet, so I'm not that stupid. *Looks at some other people*

I already wrote something like this in my profile-status and got few reponses, but I'm still concerned, when it comes to Nightwing and would like to hear what my fellow Nightwings have to say about the "problem".

The problem is Nightwings character trait.
In my opinion it seems to be lackluster and simply inferior to some other character traits. Here are some of the problems I see with his trait:

- While the staff lets you poke easier, you still lose mobility during that stance.
- The switch animation is painfully long. When you switch random and your opponent is near you, he can punish you drastically, since he has that much time.
- It's very debatable if switching the stances during combos will increase your potential combo-damage by far, since the possibility is there that you will requier the stance-switching to get the most out of your combo-potential.
- We don't know yet if the stances will provide various stats, or if the staff will do more damage than the escrima sticks.

While that may not sound all too bad / dramatic, I still shed tears, when I think about other character traits.

+ Superman gets a damage buff and ignores the opponents armor.
+ Batman gets free projectices which let you extend your combos, or Kung Lao spin around the world.
+ Flash slows down the time and changes everything for the opponent, simply EVERYTHING.
+ Even Wonder Woman who has a stance switch as well probably has better combo potential with the sword / shield and she gets less chip damage, while in her lasso stance, she can airdash around and I think exclusively divekick during that stance, so it's quite strong.

When it comes to Nightwing it sounds like ... meh.
I may not be experienced, when it comes to fighting games, but I do see some potential in the staff stance and using it to hit-confirm from a safe distance and basically always have a slight advantage, when you're playing footies, but I'm going to eat a broomstick if that's easy too pull off.
I'm still not impressed.

What are your thoughts on the topic?
 

Phase 3

Feels Good Man
Like I said in your status, two different playstyles could easily have different matchups against specific characters. If his two stances provide versatility via improved reach, altered jump and frame data, then you get a character who could potentially, in a way, counterpick you mid-match (by switching stances) and becomes potentially difficult to counterpick.

We have to assume best case scenario when looking at traits. In the best case scenario, Nightwing has two different playstyles that more or less amount to two different characters that can be used for mindgames, mixups, pseudo-counterpicks and more. Think Smash Bros, having both Sheik and Zelda wrapped up into one character. It might not be that drastic but it could be. All it takes is a couple odd pieces of frame data to completely define a character (Cage, etc.) so with his normals/combos changing along with his reach and some specials, you never know how his two halves could end up.
 
Ultimately I think his trait will be used more than anyone else's in the game.

1. There isn't a charge or cool down period
2. As mentioned above I'm sure it will drastically affect certain matchups due to the apparent differences in his footsie game
 
Like I said in your status, two different playstyles could easily have different matchups against specific characters. If his two stances provide versatility via improved reach, altered jump and frame data, then you get a character who could potentially, in a way, counterpick you mid-match (by switching stances) and becomes potentially difficult to counterpick.
How would that work exactly? I can't even comprehend that, to be honest.

The strong side of the trait is in my eyes ... IF THAT IS TRUE, that backdashes in this game will make you ... kinda safe, or what so ever - at least that's what I read some time ago. Nightwing would have a pretty damn strong game with the staff pokes. The opponent would have to either jump in or dash in and since dashes can't be block-cancelled in Injustice they would be fully exposed, while Nightwing could always backdash away and keep his distance and in the best case scenario, he could bounce off a stage interaction and proceed with the tactic.

Still, judging by the theory I see - for example - Flash being Nightwings worst match up, if Nightwing is indeed forced to use both his stances to inflict actually damage. Flashs trait would take out Nightwings staff drastically, since Nightwing would be even slower, during Flashs Speed Force trait.
I also have yet to see what Nightwing will be able to do against zoners, but that has nothing to do with his trait, I guess.
 
Ultimately I think his trait will be used more than anyone else's in the game.
Yeah, if he needs to it do +30% damage combos, then it will be used quite a lot. Luckily the stance change tends to happen in combos instantly, while it has a lot of recovery if you do it random.

1. There isn't a charge or cool down period
The process animation is very long and punishable. Could be faster imo. Now you will have to back off to switch the stance and then go in again, if you don't want to get punished.

2. As mentioned above I'm sure it will drastically affect certain matchups due to the apparent differences in his footsie game
A question out of curiosity (I'm not that familiar with MK9), but does Jade profit from her staff? Shouldn't she have a great zoning game as well, because she can decide the range where the footies and pokes take place?
 

CRUM

Noob
I was thinking about maining Nightwing since he was announced, but I'm skeptical about him based on the gameplay.
 
Yeah, if he needs to it do +30% damage combos, then it will be used quite a lot. Luckily the stance change tends to happen in combos instantly, while it has a lot of recovery if you do it random.



The process animation is very long and punishable. Could be faster imo. Now you will have to back off to switch the stance and then go in again, if you don't want to get punished.



A question out of curiosity (I'm not that familiar with MK9), but does Jade profit from her staff? Shouldn't she have a great zoning game as well, because she can decide the range where the footies and pokes take place?
she profits from it in a way. The problem is her stuff is so bad on wifi and block that it's not that effective at keeping people out. She does have good range but that's about it.
 
That trait is going to be amazing. He is able to completely change his footsie game, hitbox, attack hurtboxes, and frame data all at once. And dude, you should never random switch. It's just like Marvel, DON'T RAW TAG. EVER. DON'T. Except in this case, it's don't raw stance swap, you have to be covered when doing it. Since there are no assists in this game, stance swaps are going to be mid-combo, combo enders, or on a read that your opponent is going to do something that won't punish your stance switch. It's really not that big of a deal, you can't expect it to be a 1f duration swap and just be done lol. And I disagree that it's slow, looks appropriate to me given what he's doing.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
It could make certain matchups easier/winnable, so I wouldn't throw it under the bus just yet. We won't know til the game comes out.

Kabal has the worst X-Ray in MK9, yet he is #1. It's possible for a character to have a few tools that go unused and still be extremely good.
 

BenGmanUk

Get staffed bro
The stance change is what appeals most to me. I'm hoping for some crazy mid combo switch up shenanigans. Its nice to speculate but we won't know until we play it. I can't wait to show everyone my dick.
 
That trait is going to be amazing. He is able to completely change his footsie game, hitbox, attack hurtboxes, and frame data all at once. And dude, you should never random switch. It's just like Marvel, DON'T RAW TAG. EVER. DON'T. Except in this case, it's don't raw stance swap, you have to be covered when doing it. Since there are no assists in this game, stance swaps are going to be mid-combo, combo enders, or on a read that your opponent is going to do something that won't punish your stance switch. It's really not that big of a deal, you can't expect it to be a 1f duration swap and just be done lol. And I disagree that it's slow, looks appropriate to me given what he's doing.
exactly. Kind of like smoke and reptile going invisible in mk9. It's not wise to throw it out. But ending combos, linking from a poke, o mid combo are ways to get into it. Bonus is his stance doesn't where off like invis.
 

Phase 3

Feels Good Man
How would that work exactly? I can't even comprehend that, to be honest.
No problem, it's a little confusing but I think I can give a decent example. Imagine hypothetically, his escrima stance affords him really nice Cage-esque frame traps. This means once he's in he'd beat on people with slow/bad pokes and without armor to escape, just like Cage does in MK. Imagine the general strengths and weaknesses of that character. Now, say there are characters who do well against him in Injustice.

Say armored grabs really mess up his escrima frame traps and he's free to grapplers and bruisers or whatever in that stance. His staff has the range and potentially disjointed hitbox to keep these guys out or at least keep them stuffed at sweep distance. So instead of just being pseudo-Cage and having to deal with a potentially crappy matchups, you can swap to your staff and now you're golden.

It's this potential for flexibility that could make him hard to counterpick, and if your strategy isn't working you have the potential to download your opponent and attempt adjusting via a completely different playstyle. I mean, let alone the thought of how difficult it will be for many players to adjust to a completely different playstyle/hitbox/frame data mid-match. It's like I said, you could, best case scenario, have two great characters duct-taped together. A rushdown and a footsie fighter with their own strengths, weaknesses, and matchups. His Escrima could cover his bad staff matchups and vice versa.

This is one of the reasons I'm very excited about Wonder Woman. I'm pretty good at analyzing opponents and developing a strategy to combat whatever it is they're doing effectively. Having more tools, or a more versatile range of tools from which to pull is a great asset.


Disclaimer: In no way am I saying or suggesting Nightwing would play anything like Cage. I'm just listing hypothetical situations to illustrate a scenario in which his escrima/staff stances would be different enough to almost function like two separate characters, thus creating the "Sheik/Zelda" effect in which you could swap between two completely different characters mid-match for the purpose of counterpicking, mixups, mindgames and personal adjustments.
 

GuamoKun

I Break Hearts, Not Combos
Based Phase 3 is doing a better job than me talking bout dat Dick.

Killzone you also have to realize his trait is reliable. You don't have to recharge or have a limit or some other arbitrary rule. The only limitation is that in the second lifebar he is automatically switched back to Escrima after losing his first health bar.

As much as I like gimmicks and setups I like stable reliable options too and since he has stances he is almost essentially two different characters. He doesn't share any special moves in his stances. Even his projectile is changed from a ground one like kabal's saw into a faster non launching tracking OTG.

Nightwing will be one of the few characters who don't have to worry about trait limitations.
 

GuamoKun

I Break Hearts, Not Combos
WHUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT???????????????????ßßßßßßßßßßßßßß!!!!!!!!!111111111
Lol look at the video thread I made and then tell me what you think of Nightwing based on the videos
 

REDRUM

www.twitter.com/redrum26
Killzone

Dont sweat the Stance Switch time (looks like he switches stances very quikly, and I mean just knock your opponent down and then you have absolutely plenty of time to switch)

Watch this vid (from 1 month ago so its at least a close enough build to release)






PS. Look how fast Nightwing uses the stage props to bounce off of .... Hes fast as fuck (go to about 2 mins in the vid).. I swear it looks like 3frames... Might be faster than the Flash when it comes to bouncing off shit (which wouldnt make sense per say but he is the most acrobatic char in DC if Im not mistaken)