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Neutral or no Neutral? That is the question. Stress Test Podcast Discussion.

Which gameplay mechanic should be changed? (Two Choices)


  • Total voters
    97

PLAYING TO WIN

I like to hold up/back.
The rampant immaturity around giving game feedback is not an issue that’s specific to you. I’ve watched this start with CD Jr. and Carl circa 2012 or 2013, and continue with various players through to the present day. We’ve seen a lot of our top players from one era torch their own credibility in a very public way in the next.

No one quoted Sonic as a life role model. The post you’re referring to simply states that one specific Twitlonger, his feedback on what he liked and disliked so far about MK11, was a great example of how to give a balanced critique without bashing the devs’ competency, calling everyone scrubs, or intentionally trying to instigate a community panic for video views.

That’s a pretty simple concept imo.

You and P2W showed up in the thread and attacked his lifestyle, sexual preferences, personal tweets and a bunch of other stuff that has nothing to do with Mortal Kombat, fighting games, or MK11. Notice that neither one of you actually referenced the point of the post, which was a straightforward discussion of the game mechanics. That’s the kind of tangential toxicity that makes everyone look bad.

It’s one example of how you don’t carefully read the posts you’re responding to, and simply cherrypick to start arguments and fights. People see this.

You say you do this because you love the game and you don’t want it to be bad, but you spent a thread and podcast ranting about the input for amplify as if that’s the difference between MK11 being successful or not. That’s pretty silly.

The reason my post had so many likes is that many people are seeing the BS and they’re tired of it. They notice when you ignore a good argument to attack the person making that argument. You make your bed, you sleep in it. You guys have a mouthpiece that can be a great asset to the community.. Whether you use it for good or to try to pull others down in MK11 is up to you.

And you have a position in the community that could actually be used for some good. "Community Engineer"? Where is the TYM esports team? Where is the TYM version of War of the Gods? Where are the readable and up to date character forums? If not you what community engineer can we give our ideas to that will see them through?

I made my critiques on the game in multiple twitter posts, a private message to an NRS emplyee and in discussions with my friends in the community.

Why do you never make "see look at this professional post" for anyone else that makes them? Your bias is very clear throughout the community. If you measure your validity by tym likes on a post then you have no idea how the internet works.

When you draw attention to sonic fox in a way that says he is the example we all need to follow, you are choosing to allow his positives cancel out his negatives. I created an entire off line community that found players like forever king and had over 150 people attempted monthly while pay players to travel to events. Like every top player I have had my dramatic moments (cowboy, pig, m2dave, 16 bit et cetera et cetera). Yet you choose who gets a pass and who doesn't?

I was watching sonic fox's stream. As he was playing semij there was another african american in the call/group calling other people he was playing faggots and N words and homos yet sonic doesn't bat an eye. Since when does being a professional allow you to pick and choose what you have to be professional about ? Especially in this day an age.

but ill say this part again bc you talk about influence and i think yours should start with my first paragraph.
 

NeroOps

Death Before Dishonor
Breakaway - Needs the ability to delay the recovery when landing on the ground and instead having it use two defensive bars change it to one to give you the chance for a wake up attack. Having the skill to know when to recover when opponent is unsafe if they keep throwing out attacks is the key to your advantage.

Dashing - Haven't had much of an issue with it because it shouldn't be used at stupid times knowing it doesn't have invincibility frames and majority of the characters have forward advancing moves. They're good to get out of grab situations knowing the attack you've done on block isn't plus but gives the opponent time to grab. I've done it using Baraka's B2 or when someone tries to overdo some forward advancing moves and not thinking the spacing between us isn't correct. I've also used it after doing Baraka's Blade Charge where i dash forward then slightly walk forward into his B4. "space control"

Fatal Blows - My only gripe for that is you shouldn't be able to use it once again in the same round after the first time it's been blocked. It may be fast and safe on block but it doesn't have invincible start up frames which leaves them open if they try to use it on wake up or during pressure. Oh the damage can be slightly toned down.

Flawless block - I see nothing wrong when it's considered to be a parry like feature. It gives you the advantage if you're able to block at the correct time of when an attack hits which takes skill it's not easy.

Krushing blows - Is fine, enough said.

Those are my opinions for those features even though i know most people don't give a shit what a casual player like myself thinks. That's if those features haven't been changed knowing the stress test was a old build and not what we'll see in the beta or full game release
 
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DixieFlatline78

En garde. I'll let you try my Wu Tang style
Breakaway - Needs the ability to delay the recovery when landing on the ground and instead having it use two defensive bars change it to one to give you the chance for a wake up attack. Having the skill to know when to recover when opponent is unsafe if they keep throwing out attacks is the key to your advantage.
I disagree. If one were to breakaway at the right time it could turn the tides of the entire match. Imagine a tournament where one players kill combo gets broken out of and full combo punished in Game 2, Match 2

The attacking player could stop their combo in they smell a breakaway. If they guess wrong they miss out on damage and give them the opportunity to wakeup. But if they guess right they get a mixup and good thirty seconds of potential okizeme and max damage combos. If they land the hits, of course.

If you could still wake up attack after a breakaway then theres basically no reward for baiting it out.

I definitely want to see dashing be better. I appreciate that they're focusing on walk speed in this game, but the walk speeds seem to all be the same between characters and they're not particularly fast to begin with.

Dashing is an important part of footsies in modern fighting games
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Royal Contributor
From my understanding, flawless blocking get blown up if the person inputting the string goes into a fast special instead of continuing the string..

There should be a way to where the person inputting the string cuts the string short, it baits out the flawlsss block u2 and have it come out so the person inputting the string can punish.
 

NeroOps

Death Before Dishonor
I disagree. If one were to breakaway at the right time it could turn the tides of the entire match. Imagine a tournament where one players kill combo gets broken out of and full combo punished in Game 2, Match 2

The attacking player could stop their combo in they smell a breakaway. If they guess wrong they miss out on damage and give them the opportunity to wakeup. But if they guess right they get a mixup and good thirty seconds of potential okizeme and max damage combos. If they land the hits, of course.

If you could still wake up attack after a breakaway then theres basically no reward for baiting it out.

I definitely want to see dashing be better. I appreciate that they're focusing on walk speed in this game, but the walk speeds seem to all be the same between characters and they're not particularly fast to begin with.

Dashing is an important part of footsies in modern fighting games
That's the point of a combo breaker like feature is to help you turn tides of the match in your favor. I'm sure if your comboing someone assuming you'll have full stock of defensive meter and they do a breakaway into a full combo punish you can reverse that to be in your favor with a breakaway.

If dashing had invincibility frames at startup and you try to backdash while an opponent does a forward advancing link you're going to get hit regardless. Majority of the links are slow based on this build so it's idiotic to use dashing in that type of situation.
 
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DixieFlatline78

En garde. I'll let you try my Wu Tang style
That's the point of a combo breaker like feature is to help you turn tides of the match in your favor. I'm sure if your comboing someone assuming you'll have full stock of defensive meter and they do a breakaway into a full combo punish you can reverse that to be in your favor with a breakaway.

If dashing had invincibility frames at startup and you try to backdash while an opponent does a forward advancing link you're going to get hit regardless. Majority of the links are slow based on this build so it's idiotic to use dashing in that type of situation.
That doesnt sound fun. Itd be if like if V-Reversals were plus on block or if KI didnt have Counter Breakers at all. Being able to make hard reads on defense and punish accordingly is fun. If you have a defensive option that can break a combo that you got hit by, and lead to a full punish, that's essentially completely safe, that just sounds annoying to deal with.

And I don't want invincible backdashes. I want them to be faster. For instance, you've pestered the opponent with long range counter pokes so they dont want to poke back out of fear of getting hit. Now you can dash up and go for a throw or for better up close pressure. Footsies isnt just about walk back xx long range normal and I'm kind of worried NRS doesnt understand that
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
And you have a position in the community that could actually be used for some good. "Community Engineer"? Where is the TYM esports team? Where is the TYM version of War of the Gods? Where are the readable and up to date character forums? If not you what community engineer can we give our ideas to that will see them through?

I made my critiques on the game in multiple twitter posts, a private message to an NRS emplyee and in discussions with my friends in the community.

Why do you never make "see look at this professional post" for anyone else that makes them? Your bias is very clear throughout the community. If you measure your validity by tym likes on a post then you have no idea how the internet works.
I’m pretty sure that I went through all of this with you in another thread. One does not simply materialize a working esports team out of thin air. If you want a WotG, put up the funds for it and get someone to manage it rather than blaming someone else for not dropping thousands for your benefit, etc.

I commented on one specific thing: Sonic’s post listing his rational early critique of the game. If you want to talk about his streams, personal life, what he eats for breakfast, or anything else outside of his post on MK11, take that up with him, not me.
 
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NeroOps

Death Before Dishonor
That doesnt sound fun. Itd be if like if V-Reversals were plus on block or if KI didnt have Counter Breakers at all. Being able to make hard reads on defense and punish accordingly is fun. If you have a defensive option that can break a combo that you got hit by, and lead to a full punish, that's essentially completely safe, that just sounds annoying to deal with.

And I don't want invincible backdashes. For instance, you've pestered the opponent with long range counter pokes so they dont want to poke back out of fear of getting hit. Now you can dash up and go for a throw or for better up close pressure. Footsies isnt just about walk back xx long range normal and I'm kind of worried NRS doesnt understand that
Not every feature has to be fun but it does have to be helpful. As of right now its not helpful in most eyes because it doesn't give you an advantage after breaking combos. Like i said why not have breakaway use one defensive meter and give you the option to do a wake up attack or delay recovery. The U2 option gives you launching wakeup for an air combo but it gives your opponent an advantage to reverse the same way you did or use U3 wake up option which makes you plus to counter poke for a couple frames but also resets the neutral field between you too. Everyone knows poking into a special attack isn't real so that's a gamble itself.

Dashing is a gamble it has its advantages and disadvantages and in my opinion you make it seem like you should always have an advantage to continue the pressure before the opponent has recovered completely. The walk speed is quick enough between mid/close distance to keep pressure depending on startup frames of whatever attack you use and at max distance some times depending on opponent recovery after hit confirming an attack you can forward dash then walk forward respecting that the opponent has recovered by the time you finished dashing forward just in case they throw something out to block.
Footsies is a mind game tool to control the space of the match to help you get in for pressure or react towards a mistake an opponent has thrown out.
 

Krankk

Smoke & Noob & Rain
I'll be a Negative Nancy about one part of the podcast now: The custom variations.

First, let me say that I'm not a fan of the custom variations in general.
I don't want to sit through pro players setting that shit up during tournaments.
And I don't want custom variations be playable in ranked - for the one reason, that I don't want to spend the first round figuring out, which moves my opponent is using. At the same time I've played plenty of competitive games, where min-maxing is always the norm. There will be that one list of moves, which will become meta. So custom variations will be annoying in an ranked environment at the beginning, because you don't know what you're playing against... And then after a while you'll only be playing against the same variation, because it's the most viable one. It will get boring.
And on top of all that... When you get three preset variations for tournament and ranked play, you are very likely to disagree with some of them. You are very likely to see a clear lack of mix-max optimization. And you are very likely to end up crying and bothering Ed Boon and Derek and Paulo on Twitter and tell them to swap some of the moves to make certain variations more viable.
So I would rather not have custom variations at all. I would rather just have 3 variations, since then I would know where I'm at. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of variations in general, but at the same time having 10-12-15 special moves on one character would be overkill as well.

But now to the complaints, which I've heard from example REO.
Even though I personally am not a fan of variations and custom variations, I'm not going to call them useless and a bad idea and whatnot. I know perfectly well why the variations are in the game. They're there to provide more value to casual players. They are not there to please veterans, who have been playing fighting games for two decades. Of course you don't care about bad variations and bad special moves. But a bad casual player, who doesn't even know what safe / unsafe / frames / yadda yadda are... These people don't even understand why certain stuff is bad. They see Barakas flag variation, where he picks it up and runs at the opponent like a madman and they find it hilarious. It becomes their favorite variation. So for them it's more bang for their buck. They have every right to get that concept and the enjoyment out of it. Mortal Kombat 9 sold 6 million copies, if I'm not all too wrong. Mortal Kombat X sold 5 million copies. These are crazy numbers for a fighting game. And they are justified, considering how much content NRS provides. And variations are part of that content. And we all know that the overwhelming minority of these 5-6 million players plays the game competitively.

Oh, and one more thing:
Scorpions "Fuck Neutral" move is in the game, because he is the most played character in every Mortal Kombat game. Casuals and beginners don't want to get zoned out all game long. They want to quickly get in and mash buttons, instead of having to crawl their way forward little by little. And I'm sure that Scorpions Teleport isn't the only "Fuck Neutral" move in the game.
I understand that REOs argument goes against the idea of NRS calling MK11 a neutral based game. It isn't. And it was never going to be one. It is however much more neutral based than MKX. That's already good enough. If you want a purely neutral game, go and play Divekick.
 
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Hitoshura

Head Cage
@General M2Dave, thank you for the upload. This was a great episode.

I want to bring up something to you in regards to the Flawless Block discussion on the podcast. Listening to what the issue with the mechanic was and possibilities to what can alleviate these issues brought up a mechanic from another fighting game. I propose that the Flawless Block mechanic should be changed to be similar to the Slashback mechanic in the Guilty Gear series.

Slashback allows a character to "parry" any blockable attack by pressing S+H while blocking an incoming attack. Slashback needs to be tapped to work and not held. One must Slashback 2-3 frames right before an attack hits, which is a similar requirement to execute a Flawless Block in MK11. Lastly, ground Slashbacks must be performed in the correct direction to successfully execute (4+S+H for high attacks and 1+S+H for low attacks).

There are downsides in doing a Slashback if it is unsuccessful. One cannot block for 30 frames after a Slashback attempt; however, one can attempt another Slashback. Also, one cannot not Slashback for the first 10 frames after wakeup. These are the risks that can relate to Flawless Blocking in Mk11. The other risks are specific to Guilty gear and don't apply to MK at all. The reason the negative frame penalty is 30 frames is because the game runs at 30 fps. I'm unsure if GG Xrd: Revelator 2 runs at a higher fps, but i'm sure it's still the same.

There are rewards to using this mechanic, too, but they're all specific to Guilty gear mechanics, except one will recover fast enough that basically any poke in the game you will be at frame advantage if the opponent's attack was not canceled. Sounds familiar?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What can be done to make the execution of Flawless Block be less "mashable" and more difficult to perform is having the opponent hold down the block button and while they're blocking they can hit two specific buttons at the right moment to activate a Flawless Block. The window to execute this should remain the same as it is now. If a Flawless Block is unsuccessful then for the next 30 frames, or however many frames per second MK11 runs at, that person can not block, so they basically eat a combo if they miss time the mechanic. This will eliminate the "mashablility" of the current usage of the mechanic and make it a risky to use. However, the reward should also remain the same as it is similar to Guilty Gear as it puts one in frame advantage. It will require precision to be able to pull off successfully and will make the reward more justifiable. The only thing that changes is that this change would allow a player to be able to Flawless block jailed combo strings, but that seems to be a lot harder than Flawless Blocking a string that has a gap it, in my opinion.

Just throwing my 2 cents out there. Can't wait for the next episode.
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
I don't normally do this shit cause I'm washed up and retired as fuck, but oh my god, top players born in the age before patches or youtube or even developers showing up at tournaments asking for nerfs and posting polls on feature changes BEFORE THE GAME EVEN COMES OUT? Before the first tournament? Before we even know all the character tools in the game?! Is this not the saddest development in professional game play yet?!

If this represents you, you have completely lost the plot. You're not interested in learning, adapting, or even playing "fair". You just want to play some fantasy version of the game that works the way you want and get you wins the way you do it best. That's a pretty scrubby ass way of "competing".
This is m2dave 101 :DOGE
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
CrimsonShadow said:
No one quoted Sonic as a life role model. The post you’re referring to simply states that one specific Twitlonger, his feedback on what he liked and disliked so far about MK11, was a great example of how to give a balanced critique without bashing the devs’ competency, calling everyone scrubs, or intentionally trying to instigate a community panic for video views.
I understand that your primary function on this website is to be Sonic Fox's main cheerleader. However, players like Perfect Legend, Playing To Win, and Tom have constructed coherent arguments that were free of ad hominem attacks many times in the past, yet you failed to acknowledge them.

You and P2W showed up in the thread and attacked his lifestyle, sexual preferences, personal tweets and a bunch of other stuff that has nothing to do with Mortal Kombat, fighting games, or MK11. Notice that neither one of you actually referenced the point of the post, which was a straightforward discussion of the game mechanics. That’s the kind of tangential toxicity that makes everyone look bad.
You are the one causing the toxicity. First, you took a cheap shot at Tom with the "twice as old as Sonic Fox yet unprofessional and immature" argument. Second of all, you are now implying that Playing To Win and I are homophobes. Let me be clear once again before you continue spreading your daily dose of propaganda. I could not careless what Sonic Fox posts on Twitter. I was merely pointing out your double standard. Even if you conveniently want to ignore the sexual explicit content that he is accused of posting, he has acted unprofessionally and immaturely in the past as far as games are concerned like most high level players in this community.

You say you do this because you love the game and you don’t want it to be bad, but you spent a thread and podcast ranting about the input for amplify as if that’s the difference between MK11 being successful or not. That’s pretty silly.
I agree. It would be silly if it were true. I have already reviewed this argument on several occasions. Tom Brady even made a Brady Kast. Those who missed the point of the argument are likely illiterate.

Lolol @CrimsonShadow ’s response has 3x as many likes as the podcast post itself, who’s the real fool of the week?
Do you honestly want to talk about "likes"? Please look at mine. Almost 20,000 on 6,000 messages. Around 20-30 scrubs, which most certainly includes you, keep liking every single post that attacks me, yet I still manage to have a superior "like" percentage than those individual to whom you suck up every single day of the week.
 

JBeezYBabY

Mr. Righteous
The rampant immaturity around giving game feedback is not an issue that’s specific to you. I’ve watched this start with CD Jr. and Carl circa 2012 or 2013, and continue with various players through to the present day. We’ve seen a lot of our top players from one era torch their own credibility in a very public way in the next.

No one quoted Sonic as a life role model. The post you’re referring to simply states that one specific Twitlonger, his feedback on what he liked and disliked so far about MK11, was a great example of how to give a balanced critique without bashing the devs’ competency, calling everyone scrubs, or intentionally trying to instigate a community panic for video views.

That’s a pretty simple concept imo.

You and P2W showed up in the thread and attacked his lifestyle, sexual preferences, personal tweets and a bunch of other stuff that has nothing to do with Mortal Kombat, fighting games, or MK11. Notice that neither one of you actually referenced the point of the post, which was a straightforward discussion of the game mechanics. That’s the kind of tangential toxicity that makes everyone look bad.

It’s one example of how you don’t carefully read the posts you’re responding to, and simply cherrypick to start arguments and fights. People see this.

You say you do this because you love the game and you don’t want it to be bad, but you spent a thread and podcast ranting about the input for amplify as if that’s the difference between MK11 being successful or not. That’s pretty silly.

The reason my post had so many likes is that many people are seeing the BS and they’re tired of it. They notice when you ignore a good argument to attack the person making that argument. You make your bed, you sleep in it. You guys have a mouthpiece that can be a great asset to the community.. Whether you use it for good or to try to pull others down in MK11 is up to you.
What did you say @General M2Dave ?Question mark?
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Wanted to chime in a few things:

1. I don't see any way you can currently mash to easily flawless block, either in neutral coming out of a blockstun. Your opportunity to flawless block goes on a "cooldown" after pressing block and a flawless block has not occurred. The only thing I can think of that started this rumor: if the person matches the correct timing of the first block correctly then continues to mash block, it gives the illusion that the mashing caused the flawless block, when in reality the first block was timed correctly.

2. You cannot flawless block every frame gap. The gap has to be big enough for reversal Fatal Blow armor to activate for flawless block to work.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Cyrax, Kotal Kahn, NightWolf & Shang Tsung.
If you saw what Sonic Fox and Dragon were doing against Flawless Block with both Skarlet's Parry and Fatal Blow... you would change your tune about your suggestions on Flawless Block taking more meter to use.

I agree that you should NOT be able to mash block and get it. That is some MK vs DC Universe "Pro" move bullshit where you could literally mash and get them all. I'm sure they can put in a check to see if you are pressing block more than once or twice and negate it.

Also, on the subject of Breakaways... they should NOT be hit by Krushing Blows. This happened to Silverye here and it took his meter and left him in a bad situation:
Notice how many times breakaway was used in that video alone. No one should have that many get out of combo cards per round.