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My thoughts on this newest patch

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I just want to ramble a bit. I don't like this patch, frankly, simply because it does everything in it's power to not actually address the root problem and instead chose to nerf everything AROUND what was busted. What do I mean by this?

Let's start with Geras

F212 is -6? This was a good change.
U2 is 9F? This was a good change.
F212 now has a flawless block gap and more recovery? Why? You literally just took away combos including a high execution confirm from the game for what seems to be no reason.
Sandtrap is -2 more on block and -24 on flawless block? Come the fuck on dawg.

Sandtrap is literally the thing that pushes this character over the edge into being hella polarizing and over the top yet it seems NRS would rather make Geras less interesting to play on the fun factor side than nerf this sacred cow and it kind of speaks to me that this game really is designed to crunch the skill floor and ceiling to make it easier for lesser players to perform better. While I think F212 being -6 and U2 being 9f were very good changes, there would've been more value in simply making sandtrap death on whiff and block. The entire problem is that this HARD HITTING VORTEX CHARACTER ALSO HAS ONE OF THE BEST NEUTRAL TOOLS IN THE GAME that puts him right on top of you in one variation to start that vortex. Why this move isn't like -40 on block and why it doesn't have 80+ whiff recovery is beyond me. This move is the REAL PROBLEM on this character. 6F U2 and F212 being -3 would be way more tolerable if this character had to take super substantive risk to win neutral. He's already a wave dasher, he doesn't need this mostly super safe fuck neutral get in option.

Also I know sandtrap is now -24 on flawless block but nobody is doing that and this is even more proof that this game is deliberately designed to make it hard to outplay people worse than you. They keep implementing flawless blocks in ways that make it super high execution to perform what should be BASIC ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS instead of it's use as a tool to make reads and to escape pressure. These kinds of decisions are IMO what really take away from the sense of satisfaction of improving at the game. You're putting in 100% work for 10% reward quite often against tools like this.

TL;DR: They nerfed Geras in a way that took away fun factor/depth/skill oriented gameplay (combos etc) along with an arbitrary flawless block gap all to avoid nerfing the one move that makes him top 5. Really disappointing.

I feel this way about the jump-in changes. They did everything to avoid nerfing the real problem, because doing so increases the skill floor/ceiling gap. Let's reexamine what they did.

Flawless blocking jump ins makes them not special cancelable: Um, hello? Who was doing this to begin with? A lot of these mindgames to begin with were already massively risky anyway. You'd rather they take the risk than they just get less plus frames. Really stupid weird change that puts ALL THE RISK on the defender for less reward than before. They reduced the risk of jump ins while putting even more burden on the defender. How is this not a buff?

Jump ins as a whole are -4 less on block: Another very weird arbitrary change in a game with some characters who straight rely on jumping to get in and start offense. Baraka, Nightwolf etc.

The jumpkick auto confirm OS: Definitely not intentional, but this reduced the skill level on doing this for the offender and once again, did buff jump kicks. How the fuck? Originally Geras had to do jump kick into sandtrap for an easy confirm, now he gets jump kick into choke without even trying. Absurd.

So here's why I find these changes so fucking stupid right? THE JUMP INS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. IT'S THE LACK OF CONSISTENT FUNCTIONING ANTI AIRS AND THE DISPARITIES BETWEEN IT IN THE CAST THAT'S EASILY SOLVED BY THIS THING A LOT OF TOP PLAYERS HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR CALLED UPPER BODY INVINCIBLE D2'S. But I guess we can't have that because if we had that, people might actually have to learn to play on the ground and have a better neutral game. Can't have that. So instead we're going to nerf jump in rewards on block instead of making jump ins harder to achieve. Characters lost pressure, the hard to anti air nature of jump kicks technically got buffed due to the auto confirm OS. Instead of keeping them high reward, but making them harder to achieve (REWARDING PEOPLE FOR FUCKING NEUTRAL) they've just made them like... uninteresting instead and didn't buff anti airs?

It really makes me feel like NRS either definitely doesn't care, or that they don't understand their own game, or that this game really is designed to crunch the skill floor/ceiling and that they will literally kill anything in this game to maintain that status quo.

I'm sorry man, I just found this patch really depressing.
 

MuMuGuy

Noob
MK11 is trash and NRS doesn’t know how to fix it. Hopefully they’ll give it the TLC it needs after Spawn’s official launch. SF5 was a complete piece of shit until Season 4.

Until then, I might finally grind MKX, which I missed due to bad launch netcode and grad school. At least every character in that game has dirt, whereas MK11 is a “haves and have nots” game.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I agree. They did the same thing with Sonya taking away an entire combo route instead of just.. idk, nerfing her zoning and adding on a wee bit of damage scaling?
She's pretty much almost as cancer but is simpler and more boring to play now.
YEAH FUCKING EXACTLY LIKE WHY THE FUCK DID THEY DO THAT!? WHY PRESERVE THE MOST BORING PART OF THE CHARACTER AT THE COST OF HER IDENTITY IN HER MK LEGACY LIKE I'M SO DONE LOL
 
Gotta agree with the jump ins part. I said it from the beginning, jump ins basically feel and act the same as in mkx, which wasn't a huge issue to deal with in that game because most chars had atleast 1 viable functioning AA option. In mk11- atleast in my experience - a jump kick wins over the one normal designed as an AA, the D2. There are only a handful of chars i would dare trying to AA with and it should be universally shared among the entire cast imo.
 

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
There's all this talk about the desire to have high execution as a measure of depth/fun and skill. However, the high execution characters are mysteriously missing in local tournaments and online matches. All I see are easy execution characters which are naturally the top tiers in many cases. How many Jacqui players are out there? What about Cetrion players? Frost anyone? Basically ghost town characters due to slightly more demanding execution requirements.

Yeah, I doubt most players even care to learn them so sadly this argument may be falling on deaf ears. Most players look for instant gratification characters like Liu, Geras, Jax, Noob, Scorpion, (online), Sub Zero (online).

It's rare that I come across any other characters online. I see a little more variety in tournaments but not many players seem to be drawn to high execution characters, especially not for fun. I like them due to the fact that the reward for learning them seems to pay off in spades since there are obvious advantages such as damage output potential and unfamiliar match up knowledge benefiting you.

As for this patch, I'm fine with it, though I do agree mostly with the thread creators complaints. What I like about the flawless block changes that now there is a real incentive to mastering it. If I can thwart plus frame tick throws from jump ins and other shenanigans, I'll put in some extra time to "git gud" at it.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
There's all this talk about the desire to have high execution as a measure of depth/fun and skill. However, the high execution characters are mysteriously missing in local tournaments and online matches. All I see are easy execution characters which are naturally the top tiers in many cases. How many Jacqui players are out there? What about Cetrion players? Frost anyone? Basically ghost town characters due to slightly more demanding execution requirements.

Yeah, I doubt most players even care to learn them so sadly this argument may be falling on deaf ears. Most players look for instant gratification characters like Liu, Geras, Jax, Noob, Scorpion, (online), Sub Zero (online).

It's rare that I come across any other characters online. I see a little more variety in tournaments but not many players seem to be drawn to high execution characters, especially not for fun. I like them due to the fact that the reward for learning them seems to pay off in spades since there are obvious advantages such as damage output potential and unfamiliar match up knowledge benefiting you.

As for this patch, I'm fine with it, though I do agree mostly with the thread creators complaints. What I like about the flawless block changes that now there is a real incentive to mastering it. If I can thwart plus frame tick throws from jump ins and other shenanigans, I'll put in some extra time to "git gud" at it.
A lot of what you say is true but this is the fault of the game as much as it is the community. NRS could make the game be overall more demanding, but they can't do that because the online tournament weekend warrior needs to feel good about himself.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
I do question the merit of special cancel snuffing on FB's. It's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure what it will amount to beyond creating some "Oh fuck" situations for both players, and across all skill levels. If someone is going to be able to leverage that in game, it won't be me. (I know there is the whole other on block, grounded, OS stuff too)

I've always assumed jump kicks were intended to be more the high priority, lower damage, and less risky jump in's compared to punches that lead into standard combos. Maybe that's wrong or overly simplistic, but upper invincible d2's have wider implications than just nerfing a jump in kicks (assuming that was the sol goal and not jumping overall.) It could even impact grounded play, but it's hard to guess to what degree without trying it out in a test build or something.

Anyway, most of this stuff only matters to better players, so I'll probably stop yapping.
 
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Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
geras can still sandtrap after 212 and kill your FLB U2 just saying, so the gap does too little to nothing because he still stuffing you for reading his gap anyways.

The Jump kicks nerfs and FLB changes are good in general, at least you won't get robbed anymore if you FLB those often, it's a guaranteed launch.

I was expecting them to reduce the active frames on jump kicks to 5f, this would force ppl to decide when to do the kick, or you do it too early and get punished for it by ducking, or do it too low, and get easily anti-aired without messing around with hitboxes.

Overall the changes were still good imo, the game feels less toxic, but the geras's f212 it's still ridiculous, jump kicks and jumps in general are still ridiculous, same as pokes.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
F212 is -6? This was a good change.
U2 is 9F? This was a good change.
F212 now has a flawless block gap and more recovery? Why? You literally just took away combos including a high execution confirm from the game for what seems to be no reason.
People like you incessantly complained about the "safe string / d+1 / jump kick" meta so NRS obliged and normalized f+2,1,2, splash as well as the flawless block u+2 which essentially removes, or at the very least severely limits, Geras's close proximity game. Instead of being -3 on block at all times, he is now forced to cancel into a special move that is -7 on block which homogenizes his frame data with other command grab characters. However, you want to normalize him further by making his best special move -40 on block and -80 on whiff.

This is yet another thread in which you pretend to be some kind of balance expert.

Please stop.

Save the community from your abysmal suggestions and allow NRS to do their job as they are doing a very good one.
 

Sazbak

Noob
People like you incessantly complained about the "safe string / d+1 / jump kick" meta so NRS obliged and normalized f+2,1,2, splash as well as the flawless block u+2 which essentially removes, or at the very least severely limits, Geras's close proximity game. Instead of being -3 on block at all times, he is now forced to cancel into a special move that is -7 on block which homogenizes his frame data with other command grab characters. However, you want to normalize him further by making his best special move -40 on block and -80 on whiff.

This is yet another thread in which you pretend to be some kind of balance expert.

Please stop.

Save the community from your abysmal suggestions and allow NRS to do their job as they are doing a very good one.
Please don't represent me as the 'community'. You can only represent yourself.
Also having an opinion is normal, it doesn't make Cherny a "balance expert".
 
Gotta agree with the jump ins part. I said it from the beginning, jump ins basically feel and act the same as in mkx, which wasn't a huge issue to deal with in that game because most chars had atleast 1 viable functioning AA option. In mk11- atleast in my experience - a jump kick wins over the one normal designed as an AA, the D2. There are only a handful of chars i would dare trying to AA with and it should be universally shared among the entire cast imo.
If a jump kick and a d2 hit at the same time in MKX they trade

If a jump kick and a d2 hit at the same time in MK11 the d2 wins

Jump attacks were waaaaay stronger in MKX. It's not even close.
 
If a jump kick and a d2 hit at the same time in MKX they trade

If a jump kick and a d2 hit at the same time in MK11 the d2 wins

Jump attacks were waaaaay stronger in MKX. It's not even close.
What are the chances of the 2 moves hitting at the same time in a match tho? All i'm saying is i had more succes with AA's in mkx than i have in mk11, including D2 AA's. Seemed way more consistant in mkx, but that could be just from my experience. so no arguement to be made. Are you having more consistant AA's in mk11?
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
MK11 is trash and NRS doesn’t know how to fix it. Hopefully they’ll give it the TLC it needs after Spawn’s official launch. SF5 was a complete piece of shit until Season 4.

Until then, I might finally grind MKX, which I missed due to bad launch netcode and grad school. At least every character in that game has dirt, whereas MK11 is a “haves and have nots” game.
Careful, you may trigger the mk 11 fanboys who will tell you it's super balanced and da best mk evaaaa! [*cough Arqwart cough] [cough CrimsonShadow cough*]

Lol Honestly I agree, I'm only playing this game for some rewards in shitty KL filled with toxic losers and less than desirable gameplay mechanics. I want an mk 9 updated or that hopefully true rumor about mk klassics being redone again. We need some real mk back again.
 
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Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I'd like to note in the face of M2DAVE's histrionics that I just said Geras was nerfed the wrong way, not that I want his current nerfs ON TOP of sandtrap getting gutted. I'd undo a couple of them to kill that move personally.
 

Ashesfall

"Feel the wrath of Shao Kahn"
Sandtrap is -2 more on block and -24 on flawless block? Come the fuck on dawg.
its not -2 more on block, there was no change
(PC is still unpatched so its easy to see for us PC players)

and yes it should be -24 on normal block
flawless block mechanic here? it really shows me what i dont like about mk11
3frame flawless block system that will make or break you

NRS go in practice record sandtrap block it with d+block (because low)
now try a b,f button special to come out as a reversal
the blockstun is like 2 frames
(hint: predict sandtrap and buffer in while holding down, db into df button, dont forget to release block in time)

its so ugly to play against him
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jumpkick OS specials? i dont know if good but will make the game more safe to play
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besides i really hope NRS will fine tune the game even more
(hop should crush d1, shorter fatal blow mechanic,...)
 

Komatose

The Prettiest
If a jump kick and a d2 hit at the same time in MKX they trade

If a jump kick and a d2 hit at the same time in MK11 the d2 wins

Jump attacks were waaaaay stronger in MKX. It's not even close.

I highly disagree. JKs are stupid strong in MK11. I can hardly avoid them. You have to D2 amazingly early most of the time (at least with my characters) to have a chance at AAing with D2. This also leaves room for a D2 whiff and strenuous punish from the JK landing. I miss MK9 and pre-patch SFV standing AAs. Where jumping was bad and you got handled for it and if you didn’t get handled for it, your opponent didn’t know how to AA... Needless to say this game promotes a lot of scrub mechanics that even sometimes I abuse subconsciously because it’s just there to abuse... That says a lot...