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Strategy My Thoughts and Opinions on The Joker and appreciation toward the community

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
D2 gun backdash is not worth it. Maybe batgirl can't punish it but I assure you others can. If I'm gonna attack I want some damage/ reward for it not just 5% and a kd
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
A big assumption that I'm misinformed.
It would be misinformation if I hadn't in fact tested it myself, which I did. All the cartwheel options are punishable with standing 1. Low cartwheel is -9, standing 1 is 8 frames, I managed it pretty consistently.
Again I literally went in and tested d2~gun~backdash. Even if it isn't safe you can punish some attempts to punish by delaying the gun slightly and letting it go. This punished flying bat and cartwheel. But this also may be spacing dependent so I'm not going to go ahead and say for a fact this works everywhere every time.
One character having a good option against Joker's move(s) isn't talking about his neutral in general. I don't know how many times I have to say this but we'll discuss Batgirls options against Joker in the discussion thread.
Fair enough about some people punishing it or not, as I said I wasn't calling it a viable option but it is part of the mindgames you get off of d2.
You can't deny his d2 is very good though and covers a lot of ground, inconsistent as an AA as it may be.
How is backdashing Batgirls b2 strings and interrupting Joker's d2~specials the same?
I never said you were throwing a pity party or whatever, in the same way you might assume that I'm downplaying when in reality I know just as well as anyone that she's definitely a top 5 character in the game and her vortex is good and her corner damage is good. There's just a lot of flaws in her game that everyone overlooks because "ooh braindead vortex, push to the corner and die" when in reality it's not as simple as that. I know he's tough to play, his execution is mental, and I know his neutral is tough. I'm even willing to say right now they both struggle just as much as each other. Me saying Joker's neutral was better than Batgirls is my opinion. I'm not trying to say it's fact I'm just making my case for why I feel that his is better. You right now saying "It's seriously no contest" shows that you only understand it from one side of it and are saying that what you're saying is definitely correct. I mean you didn't even know you could punish low cartwheel with standing 1, so what's to say your entire argument is factual? Now don't take that to offense, I'm merely saying that you can't say "Jokers neutral is worse" because if it were then it would be universally agreed and it isn't. You feel it's worse the same way I feel Batgirls is more likely just as tough rather than worse. SonicFox always says Batgirl has the hardest neutral, he's continually blown up for saying so, but he's getting blown up from non-Batgirl mains. The same way I am not a Joker main and so would gladly change my mind if those who do main him present a decent enough argument. And before you go "but you're not listening to us" I am, I'm taking into account almost all of his options after d2 are unsafe as well as d2 itself and I'm taking into account that his gun has more whiff issues than the other high projectiles whilst presenting you with information like how Batgirl's cartwheel is completely punishable (at least completely by Joker) and that her overhead options are all backdashable and therefore she has to try and open up the opponent again. It's all opinion based on facts.
And what do you mean he has worse options?! Mid 40s in damage, teeth/near-UNBLOCKABLE setups, that sounds pretty good to me.
Her vortex is exactly that- potential damage. She can kill but only if you happen to guess wrong. Even PL agrees it's fuzziable but it's extremely hard to, it's like blocking earth shaker, just practice.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Honestly, get the FUCK out. I expected half a brain to realise this isn't batgirl general discussion and philosophical brain farts. Enough of this shit, this isn't a batgirl thread, nor do we care about hearing QQ of her neutral.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
@Youphemism
half of your reply to me was incorrect information and insufficient lab time with Joker. Again we are using examples of both characters since that's what we're discussing and now I see your lack of Joker knowledge and understand of what we are saying. When we actually do discuss this MU I'll discuss this with you again because your Joker upplaying and Batgirl downplaying is killing me now lol aside from what @StevoSuprem0 @The_PantyChrist and myself have said to you it seems you aren't entirely understanding much of Jokers tools at all. I'm pretty much done discussing this Batgirl neutral game downplaying, Joker upplaying debate with you. I appreciate you giving your opinion though. Just keep in mind next time you want to debate with Joker player, be better prepared because the inly way to be success in any MU using Joker is to have extremely extensive knowledge of your character vs every other character. You wont begin to understand the struggle because you don't use him. Near unblockable setups are NOT guaranteed and EASY to deal with but again you really don't understand the Joker like you think you do because you don't play him. Thank you for your thoughts though I appreciate them
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
We just disagree man. We're each stating facts and drawing different conclusions from them. You can think what you want, but I really can't see them even as equal in difficulty with what you're saying.
She has an easier time dealing with every aspect of the game (zoning, footsies, execution, punishing, risk/reward, etc) than Joker does based on what both of us are saying IMO. You somehow think the opposite. That's fine, but I'm done.
Continuing this back and forth is pointless.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
@Youphemism
half of your reply to me was incorrect information and insufficient lab time with Joker. Again we are using examples of both characters since that's what we're discussing and now I see your lack of Joker knowledge and understand of what we are saying. When we actually do discuss this MU I'll discuss this with you again because your Joker upplaying and Batgirl downplaying is killing me now lol aside from what @StevoSuprem0 @The_PantyChrist and myself have said to you it seems you aren't entirely understanding much of Jokers tools at all. I'm pretty much done discussing this Batgirl neutral game downplaying, Joker upplaying debate with you. I appreciate you giving your opinion though. Just keep in mind next time you want to debate with Joker player, be better prepared because the inly way to be success in any MU using Joker is to have extremely extensive knowledge of your character vs every other character. You wont begin to understand the struggle because you don't use him. Near unblockable setups are NOT guaranteed and EASY to deal with but again you really don't understand the Joker like you think you do because you don't play him. Thank you for your thoughts though I appreciate them
This post achieves nothing. If you're going to say I'm wrong you have to back it up. If you're going to say I have no understanding of his tools even though I've been into the lab and still currently am practicing things you didn't even know worked then back up what you're saying with facts. My original statement was an opinion and yet again saying "I am wrong" as if your opinion is factually correct doesn't help. You feel that I am wrong, and I'm open to being proven wrong as I have been a couple of times throughout the thread, it's cool.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
We just disagree man. We're each stating facts and drawing different conclusions from them. You can think what you want, but I really can't see them even as equal with what you're saying.
She has an easier time dealing with every aspect of the game (zoning, footsies, execution, punishing, risk/reward, etc) than Joker does based on what both of us are saying IMO. You somehow think the opposite. That's fine, but I'm done.
Continuing this back and forth is pointless.
Yeah of course in general she's a much better character throughout her whole game, considering her 6 frame achieves a lot more than Jokers and her game is a lot more effective when the opponent gets opened up into it. A disagreement in opinion is a fine conclusion :)
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
This post achieves nothing. If you're going to say I'm wrong you have to back it up. If you're going to say I have no understanding of his tools even though I've been into the lab and still currently am practicing things you didn't even know worked then back up what you're saying with facts. My original statement was an opinion and yet again saying "I am wrong" as if your opinion is factually correct doesn't help. You feel that I am wrong, and I'm open to being proven wrong as I have been a couple of times throughout the thread, it's cool.
He did state facts. You followed up with 47 lines summating to "...so? Batgirl = harder". That's enough. Saving it for the MU thread. You will be tagged.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
This post achieves nothing. If you're going to say I'm wrong you have to back it up. If you're going to say I have no understanding of his tools even though I've been into the lab and still currently am practicing things you didn't even know worked then back up what you're saying with facts. My original statement was an opinion and yet again saying "I am wrong" as if your opinion is factually correct doesn't help. You feel that I am wrong, and I'm open to being proven wrong as I have been a couple of times throughout the thread, it's cool.
It achieved the simple fact that of everything we've said you still don't understand or get what we are saying and the wealth of things you are talking about can be dealt with. Tbh I feel like rather I continue to back my stuff up or not we will keep going and your counter arguments will just further look like nonsense to me no offense. I'm just to lazy to argue if I feel it will achieve nothing lol
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
He did state facts. You followed up with 47 lines summating to "...so? Batgirl = harder". That's enough. Saving it for the MU thread. You will be tagged.
He wasn't talking about his neutral in general though, he kept talking about what options Batgirl has against Joker and as I rightfully said that's something for the matchup thread. I commented in the discussion thread saying I'll wait for the BG and WoWo mus, so alright lol
It achieved the simple fact that of everything we've said you still don't understand or get what we are saying and the wealth of things you are talking about can be dealt with. Tbh I feel like rather I continue to back my stuff up or not we will keep going and your counter arguments will just further look like nonsense to me no offense. I'm just to lazy to argue if I feel it will achieve nothing lol
Because most of what you said kept referring to the BG Joker matchup and not his neutral in general, that's why. But argument is indeed useless, especially if it's based on opinions so I think we should just not.

Apologies for the derailment and all guys :oops:
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
He wasn't talking about his neutral in general though, he kept talking about what options Batgirl has against Joker and as I rightfully said that's something for the matchup thread. I commented in the discussion thread saying I'll wait for the BG and WoWo mus, so alright lol

Because most of what you said kept referring to the BG Joker matchup and not his neutral in general, that's why. But argument is indeed useless, especially if it's based on opinions so I think we should just not.

Apologies for the derailment and all guys :oops:
I apologize for not being more clear when I was comparing their neutral game. I wasn't talking the MU. I was talking about the conparison their neutral and using each other as examples. If that makes sense
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
C'mon now Youph this is going too far. Batgirl's vortex is not fuzziable. If you truly believe it is, post a video showing you correctly blocking her vortex consistently and I'll gladly eat my words.
Uh how exactly? The only thing I can record with has no space left on it and everything on it unfortunately I require. Talk about shitty situations...otherwise I'd be all over it :)
 

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
Uh how exactly? The only thing I can record with has no space left on it and everything on it unfortunately I require. Talk about shitty situations...otherwise I'd be all over it :)
Right... Are you referring to your phone? Because if not then just use that.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
But you posted a tech video like 4 days ago :(
Can't you just steal borrow someone else's phone?
I know, and that only worked because I was using my sisters ipod but I can't use it right now because she's away at her friends house -_-
Mum's also out having fun, whilst I'm having fun on my laptop...
 

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
Also if I'm gonna d2 cancel for safety I may as well do blossom. Any character with an an adavncing b3 (wowo, batman, superman etc) should be able to punish the backdash. Bane as well though just probably not with b3. The fact that they can fish to interrupt also makes this dangerous depending on range. Also the THREAT of teleport is what allows you to dash up like a mad woman. Yes it's full combo but it's still an option and rewarding on a good read. Joker has nothing like that outside of far teeth range.
Just as you say you need to be patient with your options we need to be patient with ours. Also I would take backdash able holes over interruptible ones any day. Because of how backdashing works I'd be willing to bet that even if they backdash the strings THERE IS NO PUNISH. You are both just in neutral and playing footsies. For joker he will get full combo punished off his best strings getting interrupted
 

Emperor Eevee

Learn to take a joke pal!
Bro, every character can neutral jump between D2 and crowbar for a full punish on reaction. Characters like Grundy have a hard time doing it but they can just 11 out, but in BGs case she can just flying bat between it lol and I wasn't in the corner, she was. But is also hasn't happened in the corner. Sonicfox has done it to me quite a few times before midscreen.
Then please go into training mode, make a video of you doing this with at least half the cast and post it. Either I'm doing it wrong or crowbar is god's gift to Joker
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Also if I'm gonna d2 cancel for safety I may as well do blossom. Any character with an an adavncing b3 (wowo, batman, superman etc) should be able to punish the backdash. Bane as well though just probably not with b3. The fact that they can fish to interrupt also makes this dangerous depending on range. Also the THREAT of teleport is what allows you to dash up like a mad woman. Yes it's full combo but it's still an option and rewarding on a good read. Joker has nothing like that outside of far teeth range.
Just as you say you need to be patient with your options we need to be patient with ours. Also I would take backdash able holes over interruptible ones any day. Because of how backdashing works I'd be willing to bet that even if they backdash the strings THERE IS NO PUNISH. You are both just in neutral and playing footsies. For joker he will get full combo punished off his best strings getting interrupted
Of all the things Batgirl can threaten with whilst dashing, teleport is not the main option there lol. If anything it'd be cartwheel you have to worry about.
Uh what about your parry? I'm sure you could use that but I haven't tested it.
As I said to Stev0 it's cool to have a difference in opinion about something and I'm fine with settling for that, just wanted to dispel a few things :)
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Then please go into training mode, make a video of you doing this with at least half the cast and post it. Either I'm doing it wrong or crowbar is god's gift to Joker
Which part? Neutral jumping in between or flying bat? I'll test when I get home real quick.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Both. Hell, see what other characters can do. I've already tried neutral jumping and that didn't work. She kept getting caught
Hmmm. Try it at different spacings on the d2. I think I've seen people jump it successfully against me, but it might be character dependent. D1 will always stuff it while it's coming in, much like f23 breath loops. Try playing as Joker and setting the computer to always block and reversal flying bat, see if it pulls it off. I'm honestly not sure what her options are. I just know d1 should do the job regardless.
 

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
Yes. You can also cartwheel. Or do anything really. Joker really is limited In his tools and where he can use them, which is all up close. What am I gonna do? Dash up blossom? Rlg? Not to mention his ass recovery on dash. They really are incomparable