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My Response to Discussions About the Scene, Competition, Viewership, and Money

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I've been hearing discussions (privately and online), podcasts, and seeing a lot of forum posts in the last couple of months addressing 'the scene'. There's a lot of misinformation floating around, and also a lot of people that have limited perspective because they didn't follow the development of other competitive scenes. So I wanted to lay my response out here to a lot of common talking points:

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1) The NRS scene is a young scene.

We often forget this. We're used to having to fight for parity with games like Street Fighter because we share the same events. But the lore, legacy, and history of Capcom's scene (which eventually became 'The Fighting Game Community') was built up over two decades.

You will not equal the notoriety, viewership, or corporate interest of a mature scene unless you *build*. It took years for them to get there, if you simply show up and expect to be treated equally, you'll stay in the same place and have to be happy with your second or third-tier status.

Street Fighter players spent two decades playing for peanuts because they simply loved their community, to get to the point where they now have a CPT that supports some people. We are piggybacking on the people that built for them.


2) Most truly strong esports scenes built their following before the corporate sponsorship stepped in.

League of Legends had a burgeoning competitive scene long before LCS. Overwatch had a community-run series of monthly events and occasional bigger tournies before Blizzard stepped in and created the OWL. Counter-Strike went through numerous dark years without much corporate sponsorship, and built their own hype and viewership until they reached the point where Valve supports them today.

What's the common factor? None of these communities will wait for the big corporate overlords to support them. They create their own hype, and they would have done it regardless. And various companies took note and followed suit.

Smash Melee lost MLG and essentially had zero interest from anyone outside their scene several years ago. What did they do? Made a documentary, keep the torch burning, continued to build their own events outside of both esports and the FGC. Now they have thousands of players at tournaments.


3) Most esports sponsors and teams do not expect to make money from either winnings or views.

The vast majority of true esports teams are backed by venture capital. They are playing the long game. They expect to not make much money in the short term, in exchange for building a franchise that is worth millions in merchandising, advertising, broadcast rights, and content in the future.

There are many people calling themselves 'sponsors' and 'teams' that are essentially just a lone person with some money to blow on the scene. Most of these guys burn out in the short term and they are not actually esports organizations. If you're not playing the long game, you're not true esports infrasctructure.

No true esports organization depends on the players making money from winnings to survive.


4) If we want what other scenes have, we need to build it

I cannot stress this enough. Ask yourself the following questions:
  • Other than playing, what are we doing to encourage more viewers to watch our events?
  • How are we getting the word out to the general public about our tournaments?
  • If we want hundreds more entrants, how are we encouraging those people to join and stay in our scene?
We cannot just assume the scene will grow or wait for some corporation to understand it and grow it. Waiting for it to happen won't get us anywhere. So if we want more, we need to plan for it and grow it ourselves, no excuses. Corporate sponsors are much likelier to jump on board when they see that you already have your own momentum. No one wants to be your life raft.

Popular series and blogs like Cross Counter, Assist Me!, Ultrachen, Melee it on Me, etc. have been instrumental in welcoming people into other scenes.

5) But DBFZ

DBFZ's scene was built from existing scenes. They are piggybacking off of the existing anime scene, the Capcom scene, etc. It's great that this game is succesful, but this is not a model for any other game to follow.


6) Personality sells

It's important to remember that playing the game isn't everything. A lot of the biggest streamers for top Twitch games aren't their best players -- they're the people that can relate to a fanbase, connect with them and keep them entertained. No one is paying these guys simply because they're good; somebody like Seagull is a draw because people love to watch him whether he's competing or not.

If we want a marketable scene, we need more marketable personalities. NOT just good players. Period.


7) Every scene has toxicity

I don't care which game you pick. League, Counter-Strike, Fortnite, Overwatch, any major game. You will see and hear players saying horrible things to each other. And most of the chatter on social media, forums and reddit is much worse than what you'll see in the FGC.

It is what it is. If toxicity kept games from becoming big, none of these games would be big. The repeated talking point that the toxicity is what kills viewers, sales and sponsorship is patently false. They build in spite of it.
 
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Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
4) If we want what other scenes have, we need to build it
You know... I think one of the biggest hits the NRS scene and other small scenes have taken is the rise of social media. The entire discussion and interaction of people interested in the games have moved to twitter, or even worse discord and other live chat apps.

There is literally no true interaction with the player base anymore. Pro's talk to pros on Twitter and occasionally respond to a random fan but in the old days TYM for example had all the players hanging out. Rivalries were formed in public threads, the entire community got involved, pros made threads and chatted with everyone. A small tweet after evo on a game just lost or won would be a thread with 20 pages of discussion and all the pros chiming in. Match threads would be live, instead of small tweets from 1000 different sources.

Nowadays everything is a stream. Players do not interact, they just soliloquie.. or monolouge. The discussion has gone, the chatting the community is gone. Yes, I get that the sponsored that can go to 15 majors a year and get tight, but it is a closed group.. not open to the public and this makes growth slow and hard.

Then there is the death rattle of the pub scene, or locals as you yanks call it. The online world has split all the players into individuals at home.. meaning a centralised communication hub is even more important.

I think this is the biggest problem the NRS scene has... and that is how hard it is for new people to even notice there IS a scene.
 
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Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I think the inverse of the questions from number 4 above are also important. Are we doing anything to discourage viewers? Are there things we are doing that are activiely hurting getting the word out? Are there things we are doing that are discouraging people from joinging the scene?

I wish I could do more to help grow the scene. I just feel like I don't have the skillset to do much more than be active in forum discussions and try and let friends know when entertaining tournaments are happening.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Excellent read and setting the record straight, I learned several new stuff regarding the history of the FGC due to this post.

I do wanna say though, regarding the toxicity. I understand that trash talking among the players and community is necessary for the hype, that's true. However, a lot of the negative talk comes towards the game themselves. This is a completely different type of toxicity that only hurts the games, and it comes both from pros (not to a large degree though) and especially from the other members of the competitive community. That can also be related to the whole topic of the treatment that the community expects to get for our games like other communities and their games get. While MK games should've been getting that treatment at least to some degree a long time ago by the tourney originators (MKDA, for one, should've been in EVO 2003 at the very least), keep talking shit about the game for every single tiny thing out of salt while each person creating threads and social media posts about it on their own accord because they don't give a fuck what others say and just wanna throw out their shit out of salt or even getting a special treatment from NRS, that is not the same type of talk.

I've said this stuff a lot since I've got here, yet people claim all of their complaints is constructive criticism and not just rants, except the fact that even though some of them can be legit complaints, the QUANTITY of those complaints that come out blindly without noticing what others say, along with all of the non-legit complaints, make them to reach a point that it's no longer constructive. And that's what people don't get, they think every single complainant is constructive and they can say them for how long they want, or they even do realize that and just deny it for obvious reasons. And when others come to see and learn from the community, all they see is the negative talk and they walk away, because they take the huge quantity of negative talk as facts and don't wanna get close to the scene. It's bad enough that there are NRS haters outside of the community, we don't need to have haters in our own community, especially if you do it for selfish reasons, and even worse, calling anyone who actually defense the games and setting the record straight with facts a spineless chill, as if downplaying the games that represent the community you're a part of and you claim to love makes you such a cool badass.

I know this has been brought up a lot, but since we are talking about the scene here, this should be noted.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I do wanna say though, regarding the toxicity. I understand that trash talking among the players and community is necessary for the hype, that's true. However, a lot of the negative talk comes towards the game themselves. This is a completely different type of toxicity that only hurts the games, and it comes both from pros (not to a large degree though) and especially from the other members of the competitive community. That can also be related to the whole topic of the treatment that the community expects to get for our games like other communities and their games get. While MK games should've been getting that treatment at least to some degree a long time ago by the tourney originators (MKDA, for one, should've been in EVO 2003 at the very least), keep talking shit about the game for every single tiny thing out of salt while each person creating threads and social media posts about it on their own accord because they don't give a fuck what others say and just wanna throw out their shit out of salt or even getting a special treatment from NRS, that is not the same type of talk.
This happens in every game, though. I've had to hear about how Overwatch ruined the game with multiple patches/metas, how RioT ruined League at various points, how Valve's changes to CS:GO (and CS:Source before that) were going to kill the scene..

I'm not condoning it, but this doesn't really kill competitive games.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
This happens in every game, though. I've had to hear about how Overwatch ruined the game with multiple patches/metas, how RioT ruined League at various points, how Valve's changes to CS:GO (and CS:Source before that) were going to kill the scene..

I'm not condoning it, but this doesn't really kill competitive games.
I see, well thanks for the insight, and once again excellent post dude.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I do wanna say though, regarding the toxicity. I understand that trash talking among the players and community is necessary for the hype, that's true.
I see this sentiment discussed semi-often, and I'm not sure I buy into it. I think talent and stakes drives hype much more than toxicity or trash talking. It's not that I have anything against trash talking, I just don't think it's neccessary. And when people trash talk or create toxic threads/comments simply to manufacture drama or to try and bait someone I think it actually backfires in the long run and makes the scene worse off.

When I look at some of the most exciting rivalries or hypest entertainment/competition moments, they're almost always driven by the talent of the competitors and the stage on which they play. Magic vs Bird, Sosa vs McGwire HR chase in 1998, Yankees/Red Sox in early 2000's, PR Balrog vs Infiltration, 2014 Blazblu EVO finals Galileo vs Dogura, Duke vs NC, Ohio St vs Michigan. In some of these rivalries there certainly was some bad blood either amongst the competitors themselves or amongst the fans, but the overwhelming thing that drove these into must see TV moments was the talent of competitors and that the competitors were playing on the highest stage.

There is always a place for trash talking, but in terms of creating hype I think it's one of the least important factors.
 

UGL Preon

The Casual God
People forget it took Street Fighter: 3 Decades. 30+ games, a Multitude of Crossover Games, 15+ re-releases/upgrade releases (think Super Turbo/Championship Edition), an International Audience etc & they didn't break 2K entrants at EVO until 2015. Growth is hard to do in this genre.

People hate change. Any big eSport or little eSport will have a huge sect of its competitive scene whine and moan about every little change. Knee jerk reactions to new characters or maps in some games. Like with what @CrimsonShadow said about Overwatch. Things I've heard. "Mercy is dead." -> *Mercy Rez Nerf* "Okay now MERCY IS REALLY Dead" -> *Mercy Healing Nerf* "Alright Mercy is SUPER Dead forrrealzies" or "Nerf Doomfist" etc. The difference here is in team based game there's enough variables and coverage options that you can make nontraditional things work via teamwork. Its much harder in a straight up 1v1 environment.

The big point on why growth is hard in the FGC. I want you to think about the most viewed sports. What is one thing they have in common? They're team based. Soccer, Football, Basketball, Tennis, Olympics, Cricket etc. Even individual sports for the most part are huge when its team based. Like in the Olympics or cycling in the Tour de France. It fosters the fans "Us vs them" mentality. We will get so worked up for our teams to the point when THEY win, WE win. Eagles fan's after the superbowl last year don't say "Yeah man they did it". They'll say "We did it." "The CITY did it". Which gets people to invest a hell of a lot more time, resources, money, and interest in their sport or team. I mean people get tattoos of Team Logos, Country flags, & Unity Emblems all the time. However no one is walking around with a Floyd Mayweather tat. If they were we'd say "Stop riding that man so hard" or "do they pay you to be a cheerleader or do you do it for free". Even if its less enthusiasm we have towards a sports team.

When it comes to 1 on 1 sports, they typically only get HUGE rating spikes when its Floyd Mayweather Vs Manny Pacquiao or Conor McGregor while the NFL ratings are still decent even when they drop off with a Cardinals Vs Browns game.

Last note, the FGC does one thing worse than any other community gaming wise. A team or individual could make the playoffs, qualify for Worlds, win a Title, and at the end of the day in other gaming genre; they'll receive their just dues or respect. They'll have the few who'll say they were lucky but most people will say we'll get them at the next event etc. The FGC could have a major this weekend. Someone wins it. But if they don't win the next major they're back to being trash or humbled. You could get top 8 at EVO and still have people doubt you. This is only worsened by the fact that INJ2 is the only NRS legacy title. Playing MK9 really didn't help you too much in understanding MKX as much as the average legacy game does. So outside of INJ2 our scene gets a hard reset with every release on terms of "Credit".
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I see this sentiment discussed semi-often, and I'm not sure I buy into it. I think talent and stakes drives hype much more than toxicity or trash talking. It's not that I have anything against trash talking, I just don't think it's neccessary. And when people trash talk or create toxic threads/comments simply to manufacture drama or to try and bait someone I think it actually backfires in the long run and makes the scene worse off.

When I look at some of the most exciting rivalries or hypest entertainment/competition moments, they're almost always driven by the talent of the competitors and the stage on which they play. Magic vs Bird, Sosa vs McGwire HR chase in 1998, Yankees/Red Sox in early 2000's, PR Balrog vs Infiltration, 2014 Blazblu EVO finals Galileo vs Dogura, Duke vs NC, Ohio St vs Michigan. In some of these rivalries there certainly was some bad blood either amongst the competitors themselves or amongst the fans, but the overwhelming thing that drove these into must see TV moments was the talent of competitors and that the competitors were playing on the highest stage.

There is always a place for trash talking, but in terms of creating hype I think it's one of the least important factors.
Here is the thing, trash talking is adds to the hype as it adds another layer of hype that shows how pumped up (no pun intended) they are and how much they really want to win. This is true to a lot of big competition in sports.

The only time that the trash talk becomes unnecessary is when one or more of the competitors involved get too personal or even go to things such as racism (I know it's a too radical of an example, but you get what I mean) and just throw insults for the sake of it.

So trash talking is great for hype, what's matter is how it is presented.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I agree that trash talk can add hype. But I think it's far from the most important factor.

In terms of building hype and building a scene, I think it takes Talent, Stakes, and Personality. Trash Talk can be a part of personality, but it's certianly not the only part.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
The big point on why growth is hard in the FGC. I want you to think about the most viewed sports. What is one thing they have in common? They're team based
Just drawing this out a bit, do you think there would be some type of competition model that would allow the FGC to become more of a team based competition, and if so what form would it take? Would it be more of the 3v3 or 5v5 style team elimination tournament like we currently have sometimes on the Friday night of some majors? Or do you think something like how Tennis does it, with members of a team facing off against each other?
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I agree that trash talk can add hype. But I think it's far from the most important factor.

In terms of building hype and building a scene, I think it takes Talent, Stakes, and Personality. Trash Talk can be a part of personality, but it's certianly not the only part.
Nobody says it's the most important factor, all I was saying is that it adds another layer of hype. So while it's not as important as talent or stakes, it is a legit part of the overall hype.
 

UGL Preon

The Casual God
Just drawing this out a bit, do you think there would be some type of competition model that would allow the FGC to become more of a team based competition, and if so what form would it take? Would it be more of the 3v3 or 5v5 style team elimination tournament like we currently have sometimes on the Friday night of some majors? Or do you think something like how Tennis does it, with members of a team facing off against each other?
The Masters Cup in Japan is a good template

Or even how league did it with tekken.

They designate top players (8-16) captains who must recruit 4 players each for a team of 5.

Another format would be like how HALO used to do it. You'd have your normal teams sign up but they allowed for pickup teams and clans etc to also sign up as well. Itd be 3 out of 5 for fighting games due to time constraints. That way you can eliminate the anchor player reverse 5-0ing from being down 0-4. Itll make the games before count much more. There's plenty of ways to do it.

You can divide it in many ways too, pickup pool, draft, by sponsors, by region/city, by clan, by characters

Edit: But having the teams send a representative and Duke it out. Having that hype wildcard round like Tekken Master cup elimination games. Although DBFZ has a team mode where each player controls ONE of the three characters. So its 3 v 3 with all 6 in game at one time which is wild. Not sure if that's been implemented for offline play though yet.
 
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Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I think a team style tournament could be intersting, and I'd love to see if NRS could integrate some type of team tournament mode into their next game, although I think for now the standard 1v1 tournament is still going to be the dominant tournament setting.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I think the difference is that team games require team synergy, which means that you have cool moments that happen when players who are cooperating do things simultaneously.

'Team' tournaments in fighting games are essentially still just a series of 1v1s. Even Tennis has doubles where two players are playing at the same time. But you don't see a lot of pro team tennis events with bigger squads, because everyone knows it's just a 1v1/2v2 sport.

Imo fighting games have much more in common with sports like MMA and Boxing and that's ok. There's still plenty of hype and storylines to be had if we promote them correctly.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I think the difference is that team games require team synergy, which means that you have cool moments that happen when players who are cooperating do things simultaneously.

'Team' tournaments in fighting games are essentially still just a series of 1v1s. Even Tennis has doubles where two players are playing at the same time. But you don't see a lot of pro team tennis events with bigger squads, because everyone knows it's just a 1v1/2v2 sport.

Imo fighting games have much more in common with sports like MMA and Boxing and that's ok. There's still plenty of hype and storylines to be had if we promote them correctly.
Exactly, there is a reason why the FGC and the Pro Wrestling world are so connected to each other. It's because of the similar concept of rivalries and hype involved.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
Lets downplay pro-wrestling.. MMA or Boxing is a better analogy as everything is not scripted. Well.. lol.. UFC might be haha!
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
In the era of online and bluetooth controllers I would love to see a 2v2 or 3v3 game where every person controls a character. MK9 had the option to do it but the balance was so off that it never got much traction.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Lets downplay pro-wrestling.. MMA or Boxing is a better analogy as everything is not scripted. Well.. lol.. UFC might be haha!
Wrestling is the prefect analogy, Wrestling has the most equivalent type of hype to that of the FGC, that's why you see a good amount of wrestlers invested in the FGC, as opposed to MMA fighters or Boxers, if there are any of those. Also a side note, Wrestling is scripted, but it's just as fun as MMA and Boxing if not even better. In fact, if it wasn't for Wrestling, MMA would've not exist.