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My ramblings about this patch

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I know there was a thread that was like "how do you feel about the patch/are you happy" with a poll etc, but that poll and the responses in it really didn't articulate WHY you thought the patch was good etc.

For me, this patch was GOOD for me, because characters I play either got buffed, or left well enough alone. As far as helping the game realize it's potential and be an interesting FG though, I think it was a pretty poor attempt.

The good things about this patch to me.

QOL issues such as jailing etc got MOSTLY fixed. Not totally fixed.

Characters became complete, both variations viable and character loyalty definitely possible as a result. Noob, Liu, Jade etc.

NRS showed willingness to expand on characters to help them out. They basically gave Noob a whole new move and Cetrion a new KB, those are good signs for the future of how the game is handled.

The bad things however, are pretty numerous. I find this patch really perplexing and nonsensical in a lot of regards. Even for characters in this game I hate, the ways they got nerfed were super arbitrary and feel like they really lacked any kind of forethought. I'm welcome to hear peoples suggestions as to how I may be wrong on the things I talked about.

Geras:

I hated this character, but what they did to him is actually pure nonsense and they nerfed him harder than I would have. All I wanted personally was

111 to be punishable so he took a risk on the 50/50

F212 to have an U2-able gap

Sandtrap to be more negative on block

His KB's to all take a damage hit

7f D1 and 9F U2.

Instead, they just... took away a tool in the 50/50. Arbitrarily change the KB requirement on sandtrap for a reason I don't understand while also leaving him with a polarizing flawless block and counterpoke game that were huge reasons he was an issue to begin with. I feel like they did ZERO to actually address the character and what made him break the meta of the game, instead they just made him more boring both to play and to fight. I don't know what they were thinking here to be honest. This'll be a common trend amongst a lot of my complaints. Instead of adding more decision making and interactivity to playing against a lot of characters, they just straight up simplified it instead. Geras got did dirty IMO.

Sonya:

This is another example where every single change just felt arbitrary to me. Sonya still has the things that make her absurd and too well rounded.

Low profiling normals that also hella anti air

The best fireball in the game.

Instead they just... removed a launcher for some reason? The damage scaling hit was fine I guess. But it's the fact she's Deadshot with high damage unfuzzyable 50/50's. If this character had an absolutely shitty projectile and wasn't just immune to being jumped on regardless of how negative she was, I wouldn't mind losing 50% in the corner. Once again, they just kind of... reduced her. She's less unique now while still being problematic. Once again I don't understand what they thought they were doing. This character should be a mix monster with almost zero full screen presence IMO. She's still a character that does 45% in the corner off a 50/50, but can also decide to lame you out afterward with a top 3 zoning kit. What the fuck are they doing?

Scorpion:

I made a thread saying he was dead but I suppose I should've clarified. Reborn is dead. Searing Rage is fine. The teleport nerf was okay because every other attack teleport is a high, I agree that philosophy should be uniform. What's annoying is they didn't do anything to address Scorpion's issues. The mid teleport served as a bandaid for a lot of things.

He still has

b141 which is useless and not special cancelable. Surely it's not that hard to make this come out on block but special cancelable on hit.

Reborn is basically variationless Scorpion now because air throw is literally a KB with it and forget it move which is kind of a design problem across this game. I guess canceling into neutral return on strings is a good thing to have? But Reborn just kind of served as a crutch for people without fundamentals to be honest. The teleport change kind of exposed that one.

He still can't D2 or fatal blow people off teleports when they breakaway. I think everybody in the game should be always able to do at LEAST one or the other off their launchers.

Erron Black:

This is another character where it's another matter of, they didn't actually understand what was wrong with him.

The F4 nerf is a great change, it's the kind of interactive decision making I want out of this game.

The Scud Shot nerfs however, are so fucking pointless. The problem is that he can cancel into this at all. He either should've lost this move altogether and had it replaced by Acid Toss I think it's called, it's a BF1 hit throw special, or he should've lost the ability to cancel into this. Make the B222 or slide series 50/50 unfuzzyable. Now both variations have reasons to be used. Safe resourceless canceling should never exist except in the case of Jacqui where I think it's justified because of her lack of full screen game in that variation. Scud Shot ideally would be removed so it can be exclusively on the Gunslinger parallel unused variation tbh.

Buffing Liu Kang:

They gave the character that already has everything and almost has the best version of everything buffs to his second variation so now he has everything even more than he did before when people at the top level and below have been complaining about this character for months now. Nobody likes these block forever guess when you take your turn back characters, especially when they have top 3 zoning tools, insane mobility, crazy explosive easily obtainable KB's that lead to 50%+ comebacks. Liu Kang had no real weakness before. Now he's even more so that because he has a second variation that's good now that allows him to counterpick the MU's V1 lost. How in the fuck this character went under the radar I don't understand.

Command Grabs And Grapplers Being Trash

This is more a systemic issue but it does drive me nuts. I don't play grapplers, never been my style, but I pity those who do because grappling is ass in this game. Why does every command throw both do less damage than normal throws, often results in worse oki/situations than your normal throws AND almost all the ticks in this game are OS-able? These things should be good, but they just aren't. This is the first NRS game I've played where I'm no the slightest bit scared of grappler variations or characters, especially when taking the hit makes almost every tick throw punishable. The risk reward on these characters sucks bro lol

Those are some of the things, but I want to hear your honest thoughts. If you thought for example, the Geras changes were perfect, I want to hear why.

It just feels like NRS were really tone deaf. Dare I say, the changes that were for the better are almost an accident.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the scud shot nerfs are pointless. i've always thought the main damn problem was that he could cancel it in the first place, the cancel or gunshot mixup is still there. That and there's a ton of pushback on b22222222 and the gunshot so you're not exactly going to be punishing him the whole time.
Sonya was also virtually untouched. I don't mind getting 50/50'd to death by a character with stubby normals, just nerf the fucking projectile for fuck's sake.
 

Owerbart

I miss you
i play johnny cage, which means that my kharacter was left untouched when he really needed his f3 to become a mid.
 
Making Geras' f212 flawless blockable would negate the character far more definitively than any of the other nerfs they put through. He has enough going on he didn't need a high/low 50/50 mix. f212 is not a stagger nor does the timing ever change, so if you allow it to be FB'd you're literally allowing people to invalidate his offense by spending < 5 mins in training mode.

I like the scud nerf for Erron, I think removing his ability to cancel into it entirely would yet again make his offense kind of ... meh? It's still massively in favor of the defender when blocked since you're like -13 and all you can threaten with is a meter-requiring followup.

I like the patch quite a lot personally. Big step in the right direction. No, not everything was addressed, but we'll get there if they continue in this direction. May be an unpopular opinion but honestly if Liu Kang is the worst we have to deal with I'd say we're in a decent spot.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Making Geras' f212 flawless blockable would negate the character far more definitively than any of the other nerfs they put through. He has enough going on he didn't need a high/low 50/50 mix. f212 is not a stagger nor does the timing ever change, so if you allow it to be FB'd you're literally allowing people to invalidate his offense by spending < 5 mins in training mode.

I like the scud nerf for Erron, I think removing his ability to cancel into it entirely would yet again make his offense kind of ... meh? It's still massively in favor of the defender when blocked since you're like -13 and all you can threaten with is a meter-requiring followup.

I like the patch quite a lot personally. Big step in the right direction. No, not everything was addressed, but we'll get there if they continue in this direction. May be an unpopular opinion but honestly if Liu Kang is the worst we have to deal with I'd say we're in a decent spot.
Character is Batman without the mechanical bats. I respectfully hella disagree lol
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Making Geras' f212 flawless blockable would negate the character far more definitively than any of the other nerfs they put through. He has enough going on he didn't need a high/low 50/50 mix. f212 is not a stagger nor does the timing ever change, so if you allow it to be FB'd you're literally allowing people to invalidate his offense by spending < 5 mins in training mode.

I like the scud nerf for Erron, I think removing his ability to cancel into it entirely would yet again make his offense kind of ... meh? It's still massively in favor of the defender when blocked since you're like -13 and all you can threaten with is a meter-requiring followup.

I like the patch quite a lot personally. Big step in the right direction. No, not everything was addressed, but we'll get there if they continue in this direction. May be an unpopular opinion but honestly if Liu Kang is the worst we have to deal with I'd say we're in a decent spot.
Also no, making Geras's f212 flawless blockable wouldn't do shit. He's all about the grab or mid mix. He should have to take risk. Getting U2'd in this game is no big deal anyway.
 
Character is Batman without the mechanical bats. I respectfully hella disagree lol
Disagree with what? You'd rather he retain a high/low mix so he can mindlessly wade in with splash and force you into nonsense than the one semblance of actual interactive gameplay he has? To each their own. I just feel like the changes they made for Geras were surprisingly on the money if the goal was to dial back slightly but retain strength/identity. If anything he may not have been hit hard enough, but I like the direction they took it.
 

djynn

hsu hao main
Overall I liked the patch however my pocket Kitana's changes were absolutely awfully handled. Highborn is good (even though no one seems to be playing it) but seems inconsistent and Fan-Fare was the variation everyone was screaming for buffs especially in the damage department, which sucks as they indirectly nerfed her damage on a move no one uses much anyways... Still no fan combos and I don't want to sacrifice fan lift combos for a variation that doesn't get anything really great otherwise. If I'm going to sacrifice combos I need at least some good KB's to back it up, which she doesn't have either. In experience it's like Kitana's best used as a stagger type character even though it's not what she's intended to be, and she doesn't do it well, it's just what she does best.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Disagree with what? You'd rather he retain a high/low mix so he can mindlessly wade in with splash and force you into nonsense than the one semblance of actual interactive gameplay he has? To each their own. I just feel like the changes they made for Geras were surprisingly on the money if the goal was to dial back slightly but retain strength/identity. If anything he may not have been hit hard enough, but I like the direction they took it.
I disagree about Liu Kang I meant. Sorry lol.
 
I disagree about Liu Kang I meant. Sorry lol.
Oh no worries. I guess you're right. Liu Kang does not feel like healthy gameplay to me. I still think I prefer it to nonsense like Sonya? I'm really not even sure. Liu is a character design that when I lose to him I rarely feel like there's something in my own gameplay to reflect on to right the 'wrong' that led to my loss. It's literally just 'guess better.'

Hilariously tho I do miss Scorpion players...somehow. LUL.
 

Ozzy_K

Death waits for a slightest lapse in concentration
i play johnny cage, which means that my kharacter was left untouched when he really needed his f3 to become a mid.
Johnny needs his hitbox issues fully fixes and better KB requirements, maybe a throw KB, not sure.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
The fact that hours before patch Geras mains were claiming their characters got buffed, only to see some now saying he got nerfed harder, just shows that either:
A) ppl don't know what they want
B) ppl don't know what they talk about.

After seeing this thread, and despite the fact that most of us already said that no one was nerfed to hell, the tier list didn't change much, all characters who did everything they did before are still able to do it, seeing cherny post this as complain its a little bit funny.

In any case, i think the game is mostly fine on a step of the right direction the only thing i would advise NRS to look at currently, its how jump attacks works, if an attack has good downward hitbox, and fast startup frames shouldn't have longer active frames to balance it out.
Maybe reduce the shortest treshold to 5 active frames instead of 7 and the longest to 8 active frames instead of 9, this would help ppl aim the kick and we would be able to make better counters to it, not that it doesn't work now but consistency would be nice.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I think certain individuals in the community ought to stop playing the developer and start playing the game instead. Given the fact that only a small portion of the community's feedback was considered for version 1.07, the developers at NRS obviously have their visions of each character's gameplay design.

Command Grabs And Grapplers Being Trash

This is more a systemic issue but it does drive me nuts. I don't play grapplers, never been my style, but I pity those who do because grappling is ass in this game. Why does every command throw both do less damage than normal throws, often results in worse oki/situations than your normal throws AND almost all the ticks in this game are OS-able? These things should be good, but they just aren't. This is the first NRS game I've played where I'm no the slightest bit scared of grappler variations or characters, especially when taking the hit makes almost every tick throw punishable. The risk reward on these characters sucks bro lol.
The reason is very simple. If you did a low poke that is -6 on block, I could retaliate with an inescapable throw that leads to okizeme or a safe string that potentially ticks into my command throw. This 50/50 mix up would be too powerful in this game's meta and hence why a couple of command grab characters seem limited. However, if you want a challenge against a command grab character, fight a competent New Era Geras or Back in the Pack Kollector.
 
I think certain individuals in the community ought to stop playing the developer and start playing the game instead. Given the fact that only a small portion of the community's feedback was considered for version 1.07, the developers at NRS obviously have their visions of each character's gameplay design.



The reason is very simple. If you did a low poke that is -6 on block, I could retaliate with an inescapable throw that leads to okizeme or a safe string that potentially ticks into my command throw. This 50/50 mix up would be too powerful in this game's meta and hence why a couple of command grab characters seem limited. However, if you want a challenge against a command grab character, fight a competent New Era Geras or Back in the Pack Kollector.
Good post. Are you m2dave as in the old school Zack player from way back in the day?
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
The reason is very simple. If you did a low poke that is -6 on block, I could retaliate with an inescapable throw that leads to okizeme or a safe string that potentially ticks into my command throw. This 50/50 mix up would be too powerful in this game's meta and hence why a couple of command grab characters seem limited. However, if you want a challenge against a command grab character, fight a competent New Era Geras or Back in the Pack Kollector.
I actually think the command grab system makes sense in this game. I do not think that the damage they provide makes the risk worth it at all. The two characters you gave + Jax actually get some other advantage to landing the command grab that hey can utilize. If Kotal's buff lasted much longer it would also make more sense (even though it switches sides and that part is stupid).

I think NRS needs to just make the command grabs meanigful other than "hahahah i can tick it" which isn't worth it in this game.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
The fact that hours before patch Geras mains were claiming their characters got buffed, only to see some now saying he got nerfed harder, just shows that either:
A) ppl don't know what they want
B) ppl don't know what they talk about.

After seeing this thread, and despite the fact that most of us already said that no one was nerfed to hell, the tier list didn't change much, all characters who did everything they did before are still able to do it, seeing cherny post this as complain its a little bit funny.

In any case, i think the game is mostly fine on a step of the right direction the only thing i would advise NRS to look at currently, its how jump attacks works, if an attack has good downward hitbox, and fast startup frames shouldn't have longer active frames to balance it out.
Maybe reduce the shortest treshold to 5 active frames instead of 7 and the longest to 8 active frames instead of 9, this would help ppl aim the kick and we would be able to make better counters to it, not that it doesn't work now but consistency would be nice.
I disagree

I don't think there is a consistency about the nerfs and buffs across the board. I think they "want" certain characters to be good and ignore others until a later date, such that they can be good.

I will never claim to know anything about the balance cycle or though process that goes through the developers. But They've never realyl been consistent and sometimes they just make zero sense. I do applaud them for trying new things to balance other than "change frames" with vitality nerfs and buffs.

I still think they owe us Hitboxes in training.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I disagree

I don't think there is a consistency about the nerfs and buffs across the board. I think they "want" certain characters to be good and ignore others until a later date, such that they can be good.

I will never claim to know anything about the balance cycle or though process that goes through the developers. But They've never realyl been consistent and sometimes they just make zero sense. I do applaud them for trying new things to balance other than "change frames" with vitality nerfs and buffs.

I still think they owe us Hitboxes in training.
I never said there were, its their game NRS will take the direction they feel like going, in fact in the last stream they were pretty clear about that.
Just as any other NRS game, when one sucks at the ground the solution its playing in the air, while i think Jumps are less stronger in this game, i feel like they should be just slightly weaker
 

MagicMan357

"130 ms is more legit than Labbing" - TYM
This patch is good in 2 ways.

One: it added more options which is always good regardless what scrubs say

two: the game now only really has 2 or 3 bad characters because of frame data (kano,kung,kotal) so for the other 23 characters to on point is A1
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Does he mean Zaq with a Q maybe? As in ScheissNuissen. Lol
I am best known for placing top 8 with Freddy at Evolution 2012 and I have had some regional success in Tekken. I know nothing about any other games.

I don't think there is a consistency about the nerfs and buffs across the board. I think they "want" certain characters to be good and ignore others until a later date, such that they can be good.
Thank you for mentioning Jax in the other post, but I disagree with these two statements. Speaking of being around for a long time in my previous post, NRS developers have over-buffed and over-normalized characters in the past which resulted in major balancing problems. They are making changes cautiously with this game so I highly doubt they have an agenda for or against certain characters. I think they created character designs that they want to stick to at this moment instead of overhauling them.

I also think the game ought to be criticized for the lack of depth, the variation system, the fatal blows, and the varying speeds of mid attacks among the roster. The balance of the game, however, ought not be one of the criticisms. I could make a long post describing how I personally would have nerfed Geras which would serve no purpose whatsoever. If Liu Kang is in fact the best character in the game, according to multiple tournament players, nobody should be losing any sleep at night, and neither should nor will NRS.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I think certain individuals in the community ought to stop playing the developer and start playing the game instead. Given the fact that only a small portion of the community's feedback was considered for version 1.07, the developers at NRS obviously have their visions of each character's gameplay design.



The reason is very simple. If you did a low poke that is -6 on block, I could retaliate with an inescapable throw that leads to okizeme or a safe string that potentially ticks into my command throw. This 50/50 mix up would be too powerful in this game's meta and hence why a couple of command grab characters seem limited. However, if you want a challenge against a command grab character, fight a competent New Era Geras or Back in the Pack Kollector.
I've played against both. I'm not scared of those characters.
 
I just want scorpion b141 and ex burning spear to actually do something and that's literally it. maybe meterless spear extensions but i understand if no. paulo please