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MK4 Tier List

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
I am not fully versed in MK4, but there are several people on this site who are. I'm starting this thread because of the ignorance that spans the internet.

The top tier is Tanya, Jarek, and Reptile.

Bill, Konqrr, or ded_, please post some full info here. I know there's been some work on an MK4 guide but we need something up here for the game.
 

ded

Elder God
i can post something but i'm not completely sure about the whole mk4 top tier, i have to talk with hanzo about it, and will post something. until then let the "flip kick" "ground stomp" and "the inf weapon" stay lol
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
A raw tier based on what i have seen/played here in Venezuela over 8 different states of competitive level, one more than another but definately, competitive level:

GOD tier in no especific order:

Sub Zero
Reptile
Tanya

Top in no specific order:

Scorpion
Reiko
Fujin
Rayden

Middle in no specific order:

Liu Kang
Sonya
Jarek
Jax
Cage

Bottom:

Kai
Quan Chi
Shinnok

This is very raw and its missing the comentary and correct placing.
Also remember that in MK4 there arent any ugly stupid overpowered matchups like in Mk2, its sorta like UMK where like 85% of the characters have a chance of winning if played correctly. We have to have in mind that the reptile inf was recently discovered so we have to study a little more if that is game breaking or not... I think it will up him more to an elder god tier or something...
 

ded

Elder God
i accept with almost everything but seems i dont have SO MUCH competetive experience with mk4 arcade, can you explain why you listed sub-zero so high, jarek so low and a couple fujin stuff why he is at the top too
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Sub Zero (I edited the other because it was done in a rush...sorry for that :p)

In MK4 Sub is god tier, or God Zero how is know here. Why? Here´s a little rundown of his pros and cons:

Pros

-Without Wpn he IS a blue Scorpion. That means high priority normals and high priority combo openers. This means that most of the time you run at the same time that your foe (and assuming he has another char) Sub will gain the upper hand if both try to start a chain combo. Good aaHk that has high and long range. Long range Lk. Good aaHp´s and good Lp´s for stopping running foes on their toes. His early SUJK can be cancelled easily and is an important part of his rushdown as it has long reach.

-With Wpn he´s just plain evil. Sub can turtle/attack all day, mixing up stuff for not getting predictable. The Lp sweep is perfect and only a few chars can punish it if blocked. B+Hp is Juggle starter. B+Lp can freeze you and cannot be punished if blocked. Standing Hp has high poking priorities and can be an excellent aa. His jumpin´ attacks gain more priority so they are harder to Juggle, specially J.Lp. Back J.Hp is a nice aa too if done on reaction.

-Godly specials. The ice Clone is cheap. Plain and simple. It can be done very close to the foe and this can be very annoying. In a high level match against a Sub you MUST think twice every move you do, otherwise you will end up frozen. His Ice blast though slow off of a combo and with an 1 hit limit, is useful if you can hit confirm a close Hk (knee) then cancel with the Blast. The Slide is good for two reasons: First, it can punish EASILY all blocked sweeps and like 80% blocked weapon attacks. Second, it works very well as a transportation move (of course if it dont hit the foe). You can setup throw traps after a pop up combo or extend Juggles with it.

Cons

-Foes can duck without harm under B+Lp and Hp both Wpn attacks and can counterattack. Sometimes Reiko´s J.Hk can beat Wpn Hp. Liu, Reiko and Sub can punish almost all of his Wpn attacks.

-A blocked Slide means a 40% combo if punished correctly.

-Scorpion and Liu are the main weakness of Sub. Scorp can punish EVERY Ice Clone attempt with his Teleport Punch followed with the Spear for easy 47%. Liu Kang simply will not let him draw his Wpn by punishing every attempt to it with his Flying Kick. It also punish his Wpn attacks.

-All of his freezing moves activate damage protection so expect having a hard time trying to do damaging combos but this is relative because he has plenty of openings for freezing and with single hits alone he can dish out lotsa damage.

-As most chars, slow sweep speed that is easy to counter.

Basic tips and strategy

The main game for Sub is to get his Wpn out. So you should focus on setting this up as quick as you can. Some safe spots obviously, are when the foe is frozen. So we need first setups to freeze the oppnent. here are a few:

*Blocked chains works well, especially if you know that the Ice Blast lose his hit limit if the foe blocks. so we can do a 3-hit chain like HpHkLk and then cancel the tip of the Lk with an Ice Blast. It will come out fast because is part of a combo and the Lk is only fake and your foe may think that you messed up your chain and could go offensive. You can mix it up with the Ice Clone but both mix are useless against Scorp. Rayden can also teleport behind the Ice Blast but can get frozen if he tries to teleport behind the Ice Clone.

*You can also draw Wpn in any chain but the most safe is HkHk Drw Wpn. Why? If you know the game well then you know that you can punish every HkHk chain if you crouch block the first Hk then let Block off and the second Hk will whiff over you. You can here either get up and combo or just uppercutt your foe. Well, if you are Sub and you know your foe is waiting this then do it BUT cancel the second Hk with the Draw Wpn move. This causes a weird glitch in wich the foe CANNOT do any move except blocking, no matter how much he /she mash on any button. If he happens to block high both Hk´s he will be pushed away and if you did cancel the last Hk with the drw Wpn move he will "Stagger" in the block animation. This happens very fast and if the foe doesnt reacts in time, Sub will get his Wpn out and still be on the offensive. this can be punished with a quick special move but as said, it has to be done fast. This technique works for all characters but with differebt results due to the differents drw wpn attacks of all chars.

*After any sucesfull chain combo you can draw your Wpn. The most basic form is HpHpHkHk Drw Wpn. This allows for another hit in the form of the Slide or a J.Hp for more damage. If you feel just cocky, do HpHpHk, D+Hp, After the pop up Jum foward and do an instant Air Ice Clone. If done right you will freeze your foe airborne. Then you can simply draw your Wpn and wait for him/her to fall and keep Juggling. If you got down the early SUJK timing you can wait for the foe to fall a little after the Ice Clone then do early SUJK then B+Hp and follow it with anything you like, depending of course if you are in the corner.

Once you have your Wpn in hand the foe will realize that he is already in hell and will have to re-think everything he/she had in mind. Sub Standing Hp can punish various blocked attacks, mostly Wpn attacks and if blocked is hard to counter. Crossing your foe up with Wpn in hand is useful. Either if the opponent blocks or dont, you can cancel the J.Lp with an Ice Clone. if the opponent blocks its he will have to wait a little to see if you are going to do it or not. If he gets nervous and try to counter you he will get frozen, and in the worst case you will end up out of his reach ONLY if he/she isnt Scorpion. As mentioned, he can Teleport Punch you easily.

Quick Lp sweeps will keep them out of balance and will have to be in crouch block most of the rounds. Dont try blocked chains that include the B+Lp or B+Hp attack! The foe will just release block and uppercutt you! Instead go for the B+Hp or Lp sweep. Of course, again be careful against Reiko and Liu advanced players.

If you manage to get an B+Lp blocked, normally your foe will try to retaliate, this is the time for either an ice Clone or a close Hk into Ice Blast or better yet: Early SUJK , Hk, B+Lp. The Early SUJK has an awesome range and most of the time will connect.

Here is a list of basic combos that will take the most damage without much effort:

If your rival is on the the ground:

Without Wpn:

Hk, Ice Blast, SUJK, HpHpHkHk, Drw Wpn, Slide 9-hits 40%
Hk, Ice Blast, SUJK, HpHpHk, D+Hp, R.aaHp, J.HpHk 10 hits 42%

With Wpn:

Hk, B+Lp, SUJK, Hk, D+Hp, J.Hk, J.Hp 7-hits 36%
Early SUJK, Hk, B+Lp, SUJK, Hk, D+Hp, J.Hk, J.Hp 8-hits 44%

I will update the list later.
 

Mario

Noob
"reptile infinite" as in that weapon trick with the spiked club from the 2nd MKG video? If it can only be performed with that particular weapon (not reptile's default) and in the corner, I don't see how that could change the tiers much. Seems as useless as Lui Kang's pop up infinite, unless you're playing against Jax AND steal his weapon AND get him trapped in the corner.
 

ded

Elder God
c2c - corner to corner, its not like real infinite

LP with weapon is perfect aa so technicaly one LP with weapon leads to 6 hits 42%, if its near the corner use the roll the get them out of corner.

the infinite can be done not so difficult while invisible too, and you can connect it often as a punisher.
 

Mario

Noob
Yeah, I saw that in the video (or similar), but apparently it's an infinite that's only possible when maximum damage is turned off. So it shouldn't factor in competitive play on the MK4 default settings. The other reptile infinite or 100% combo (with the spiked club), however, seems to circumvent the maximum damage setting. It seems useless though.
 

ded

Elder God
of course that weapon infinite is useful, have you ever played against people? LOL

the spiked club maxdamage inf is not, we showed it just for show in the vid
 

Mario

Noob
"of course that weapon infinite is useful, have you ever played against people? LOL"

Yeah, I have, but never with maximum damage disabled, and after seeing that new video, I think I'll leave maximum damage turned on if I ever play against someone else in the future.
 

dreemernj

Ambassador
Even with Max Damage on, the inf is obviously still useful. A simple repetitive combo that basically guarantees maxing the damage? Yeah, definately useful.
 

ded

Elder God
of course, turning of maximum damage will show only more his advantage but its obvious with turned on its too, scorpion for example has a guaranteed 50% everytime he got a chance for combo but that doenst make him god, the damage is not the key its the advantage of something.

another example is lao in umk3 - one spin and you are "goodbye dude" but is that spin makes him better than kabal or hsmoke -> no.

i played a lot mk4 against people and tanya is a true nightmare but seems not against sub-zero, seems hanzo has more experience than me, thats why i was surprised to see him at the got tier and asked him to explain some stuff.

i enjoyed reading this and i'd like to see more stuff about fujin so hanzo post asap something about him !!! lol
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
I'm not buying that Sub > Tanya in MK4...he can't get near her.
Remember that seh HAS to get close to him also to win...She cannot just turtle all day because he is a turtler too.

I edited my Sub post with more content.[/quote]
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Tanya is the only fighter that can legitimately fight from a distance. Drill kick owns jumpers and her air fireball is good bait.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Reiko (Incomplete info)

Fast and deadly, Reiko is top tier (not god) without a doubt. Why? His mixups and variety of options allow him to confuse many opponents. His throw game is also good. His air attacks all have high priority and are hard to Juggle, his special attacks are good too. His combos inflict good damage but you have to do the right combos in the right situations.

His normal attacks all range in the good and fast side, his Lk is a good deterrent for running foes and his Hk is a nice aa and can be followed by his flip kick for big damage. However his sweep is slow and can be easily punished by Liu, Sub Zero and Reiko himself.

His close combos are better started with Hp wherever is possible and his Hk combos have decent priority and can dish good damage from both options.

Examples:

HpHpHkHk, Flip Kick, R.Hp, J.HpHk 8 hits 43%

HkHk, Flip Kick, R.Hp, J.HpHk 6 hits 40%

His air attacks are all ok specially his j.Hk. His Hp starter is just like everyone else. What makes the difference is the damage done from the following combo. His early SUJK expands his possibilities and helps him to extend his combos perfectly.

In MK4 there isn´t many differences between the characters in the Hp/Lp departament so it can be said that all of them share the same properties.

Reiko can snuff some nasty combos from his aaHp´s. This is heavily based on where´s Reiko on the screen at the time. He is better at the center of the screen.

Example:

aaHp, Flip Kick, J.Hk, Teleport, SUJK, Flip Kick, aaHp, J.HpHk 8 hits 46%

From there he can also set up various grabs mixups, if you change the J.HpHk At the end for an J.Hk then Teleport and grab, there is a glitch that allows Reiko not to slam the foe with the tele-grab and he will be in an compromised position and the blocking becomes confusing.

On the corner, Reiko is simply deadly. One popup combo and you will be Juggled easily for +40% damage. The J.HpHk, Air Teleport, repeat is one of the easiest infinites in the game. Sometimes he will throw you even if you are blocking holding back with his Lk throw.

His Flip Kick is very useful. It can punish blocked sweeps and most blocked weapons attacks. It has a hit limit of 4.
If done close to the corner, Reiko will get pushed out of it. At the beginning of a round it can be a surprise hit but try not to be predictable. The Flip Kick is 100% safe if it doesnt hit an opponent. If blocked it has little recovery time but still can be punished. If timed well, you can stick it one Flip Kick out of range just to get in close (sort of a transpostation move).

His Throwing Star is good for zoning, it can be keep away move. If the Stara open in his full circle, it becomes difficult to jump at last moment. Its good to finish combos but isn´t very damaging. It has very little recovery if blocked and the foe must be very close to punish it. As a pressure move is good due to the aforementioned.

The Tele-Grab is a good move. Its a transportation move ONLY in combos and it also setups various traps. In the corner, it can be done infinitely or until the MAXDAM ruins it all… If blocked either the punch, kick or the grab, Reiko He will float defenseless airborne. It can be done in the air.

The side Teleport is useless, just dont use it.

Reiko with his Wpn is deadly, his B+H pis a very good aa and it punish almost all blocked attacks, being those Wpn or normals. Both Lp and Hp are show and are not necesary, the Hp version is a little faster though. B+Lp could be the longest reaching Wpn attack but is very slow. This is also the animation Reiko uses when he Drw Wpn in a combo and for some weird reason it doesnt combo! It also leaves him open to a counter. All of Reiko´s standing attacks can be punished by Liu, Sub and Reiko if blocked.

His Wpn jumping attacks are both good. His back jumping Hp is a good aa done on reaction and should be followed by an inmediate Air Tele- grab. His j.Lp as all of the Wnp J.Lp of the game, if blocked high can be punished by an aaHp.

If you have Wpn and manage to conect an HkHk, Flip Kick combo, do early jumping Hp, Air teleport, J.Hp. This is the easiest and one of the most damaging options from this combo start.

His throws are both good, his Lp grab does good damage and leaves the foe in disvantage. His Lk throw could be one of the best throws in the game, not only it allows you to keep rushing if you connect it but, it can also be followed by a combo. This is very hard and the combo is:

Lk Throw, R.Lp, Flip Kick,…

This is very hard and most of the time can be blockedif timed wrong. To know if it was done right, the foe will be Juggled by the Lp, something that normaly would not happen.

What could be one of Reiko´s weakness is that he doesnt always have available big damage combos at his disposal. Sure, he has many starter combo options (Flip Kick, any ground Chain, aaHp…)but the attacks that follows them needs correct placement on the stage. The Most damaging variation after the Flip Kick is J.Hk, Air Teleport, SUJK, Flip Kick,… Remember that the Flip Kick has a hit limit of 4. This variation (or BnB)becomes useles after we have moved out of the center of the stage. And in the corner it cannot be done because either the SUJK or the Flip Kick will push you out of the corner.

This can be somewhat fixed but the way is VERY hard. The thing is that if you started the combo with an aaHp followed by a Flip Kick you will pop your foe higher tan with a Flip Kick alone. After that you have to run a little distance and then jump with an early Hk. If done right you will cross up (or cross down because you switch sides from below him/her)your foe and he will bounce to the other side after taking the hit. After that J.Hk you have to Air teleport as fast as you can and do your normal BnB SUJK, Flip Kick combo. Remember that this is only if you KNOW that you are either far away from the corner and you are out of the BnB combo range.

This affects other Reiko combos as well. After HpHpHkHk, Flip Kick combo you have to choose quickly wich combo to do. At the center of the screen the Mohs damaging is. Early J.Hk, Air Teleport, SUJK, RH. For the RH to connect you have to do the SUJK a bit late. Its 50% so its worth. You can replace the RH for the throwing star if you dont feel confident for an still good 47%. If you are out of combo range, simply do aaHp, J.HpHk for 43%. You can Drw Wpn after the SUJK for 45% and have it on hand.

For corner combos the best option is after the Flip Kick, add 1 or 2 aaHp (depending how far you are of the corner) and do the J.HpHk, Air Teleport inf.
3D combos are flashy and damaging but requires special setups such as being in the middle of the stage and have Wpn in hand and critical timing.

Example:

Wpn, Flip Kick, early J.Hp, Air teleport, SUJK, Flip Kick, early J.Hp, Air teleport, xx

The xx means that at this point the next move will activate MAXDAM or not. It depends if you are playing on arcade or on any home version. If you are playing on ARCADE you can do SUJK then Throw WPN for about 45% (I forgot exactly how much dam it does :p) and in any of the HOME VERSIONS do another J.Hp right off of the Teleport. This last combo will do about 43%.

I hope I can do a little combo vid just to explain better all this.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Reptile: (Incomplete info)

Sure, Reptile is missing here his forceball attacks from Mk2 and UMK3 but he was given other tools. The Dash Punch was modified and he has now a Krawl move that leaves the oponent open for a Juggle. His new discovered Wpn infinite is enough to place him in the god tier ranking.

His normals are good. His Lk is extremely fast and is good for poking. His Hk is somewhat good as an aa but it feels a bit slow. Dont rely on it too much.

His ground combos are fairly limited and dont do much damage. Try to capitalize more on the HkHk, Krawl, Dash combo to do more damage.

His air attacks have normal priority. They can be stopped withouth much difficulty.

In MK4 there isn´t many differences between the characters in the Hp/Lp departament so it can be said that all of them share the same properties.

From aaHp Reptile is also limited too. When Juggling someone that jumps at you, do aaHp, Krawl. There is an special instance where the Krawl will hit the foe and he will bounce in the other direction. This can be used to our advantage because it wil fall right in front of us. To do this, perform the Krawl a bit early after the aaHp hits.

If you manage to master the early SUJK, when you block an special attack that leaves your foe airborne you can get the best out of it. Early SUJK, Hk then krawl are like 33%. A dash is possible at the end but is difficult.

In the corner, Reptile is actually good. He can Krawl twice depending on the number of hits and maximize the damage done.

His specials are good except for the Acid Spit that is extremely slow and does low damage.

The Invisibility isnt that good as it used to be. It has slow start up and is easy in MK4 to detect where you are. Its still useful but not deadly as in UMK3.

The Krawl is actually an excelent move. It can be used in Kabal´s Spin dash fashion when the foe tries to cross up you. From a single Krawl you can get few aditional hits but a Krawl and a Dash do good, easy damage. It has a hit limit of 4. When you are cornered its good for escaping. If blocked, the foe must be aware of counterattacking low because all Hp´s will whiff.

The dash Punch is a 2 hit attack that does decent damage. If blocked it leaves Repts very vulnerable. Its good for ending combos but sometimes leaves you short. You have to be careful. If blocked is easily punished.

Repts Wpn helps him to be god tier. His Axe breaks the game.

B+Hp is a spinning move that hits 3 times if grounded or 2-1 on Juggles. It depends on how much hits you have connected first. To keep spinning hold the Hp button. If you only tap it, Rept will do a “fake” spin (or a wiff) that is extremely fast an is hard to counter due that its not an actual hit. You can do it from a close Hk and keep rushing, then attack again. You can repeat it just for pressure. There are too many variations after this to list them all.

Hp is a swing that has long range and is a decent aa. Is fast enough to surprise a foe. It has more reach than it seems so expect your foe to be confused for a long time. Its hard to punish if blocked from far.

The B+Lp is a frontal swipe that lunges foward and is fast. It can be punished easily if blocked.

Lp is THE BEST WPN ATTACK of MK4. Its a swipe that can be used as aa but his best property is that it can be cancelled with ANY attack after it connects blocked or not.
If you miss it completely, Repts is very vulnerable to any big damage counter. If you cancel it with block, it prevents counters like Kang´s Flying Kick or Reiko´s Flip Kick. Also it allows for an infinite combo, wich isnt that easy but very possible. If the MAX DAM system didnt exist, Rept will be as broke as Noob Saibot. The infinite goes like this:

Reptile Infinite:

If you manage to connect an Lp, tap slighty Block, then quickly Run and do an aaLp, repeat the whole thing.

The only difficult part is when the first hit connects. Its easier if the Lp is used as an aa but when you start it as a ground combo, you have to do the second aaLp at a shorter distance.

Be aware of this: In ARCADE the game slows down like hell making the timing very hard. In the home versions is actually very easy.

It takes like 3 or 4 hits after the MAX DAM craps appears so finish it with a J.Hp (If you dont want to lose the Wpn)for 45-44% or Thrw Wpn for more damage.

The fact that he can cancel with ANYTHING after the lp makes him very unpredictable and make it a guessing game of what comes nexr. This favors Reptile a lot and forces us to play defensively.

Example of rushdown with Repts Wpn:

When in close on a blocking foe:

Hk, B+Hp(tap), Run, Hk,Lp, tap Block to get out of the Lp animation, move foward a bit then jump and you will land behind of your foe but it doesnt look like a crossup so throw him!
 

ded

Elder God
cool stuff Hanzo, i'd like to see a vid with Reiko unpunished juggle LP after LK throw, its hard as hell to do (or i just dont know the timing) ;]
 
SUJK move question?

I am trying to execute this move, but i get this move executed only once in 10 tries. _ded earlier told me "The Grounded SUJK (Up+Kick) is performed actually very easy in N64 MK4, all you have to do is hold Up and immiditely press HK while holding it, but not at the same time". i tried but still i cant get this move done in all tries and mis it a lot. Any help on this?
 

ded

Elder God
hanzo if you are reading this, today thanks to FrozenWorm we've found new sujk infinites that can be used in vs game and if maxdamage is off they will make some charactes like quan and kai def top tiers LOL