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Match-up Discussion MK2 Shang Tsung VS Mileena

MKB

Forum General Emeritus
VS


Rules of this discussion:
  • You may contribute anything that will further the interest and understanding of the matchup. This includes strategies, videos, combos, etc.
  • Feel free to answer the default questions posed in the first reply, though you are not required to do so.
  • Please keep the discussion focused on the two characters in question.
 

MKB

Forum General Emeritus
This can be an interesting match at high level...

Both Mileena and Shang can play from anywhere on the screen; though Mileena trumps Shang in the combo department, sans-morphing. In a spam war, Shang can actually pin down Mileena with multiple skull tosses. Of course Mileena can counter the abuse with a roll if Shang is not careful about it. Up close, both have amazing CQC. I would say Shang has the better jabbing game, though Mileena can get out with a roll if she is fast enough.

Mileena's roll is the trump card in this match and gives her the edge either 7-3 or possibly 8-2.
  • Better CQC?
  • Better zoning game?
  • Does Shang need to morph?
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
Surprised no one ever commented on this match up. It's played enough times to be worth talking strategy about.

The only reason this match isn't 5-5, is because of Shang's vulnerability when morphing.
Otherwise he could technically just be Mileena the entire match.
Instead, Shang by himself is an inferior character to Mileena.
He can obviously morph to bridge the gap, but takes a risk every time he does so.
Because when he morphs he is susceptible to a 100% infinite jab up close.
I think I have only lost with Mileena to a Shang player, once or twice in the past 3 years.

MILEENA
Trading spam with Shang is usually a good idea if you can time it right so he takes more damage than she does.
Just be careful about Air Sai because if they whiff and you end up stranded in the air, Shang can hit you with 3 Skulls for 33%.
They both have great CQC but I'd give the edge to Mileena because of her sweep being longer, and her fast Roll.
Her Air Sai, Roll, and Telekick are all great counters to Shang's Skull spam. This usually forces him to morph and then you must change your strategy accordingly.

SHANG
Mix up your Skull spam so Mileena can't get a rhythm to counter it.
Throwing 1 Skull is usually best, as it baits a Telekick or Roll from Mileena, which Shang has enough time to block and punish.
Don't be afraid to get in close to her and sweep or jab her. Just watch out for her Roll.
Shang has one of the greatest aaHK's in the game. If Mileena's get jumpy, take her down with the aaHK.
His JK is a beast as well, but is pretty easy to anti-air uppercut for Mileena. Use quick hop kicks in close instead.
If you feel more comfortable using a different character, morph into that fighter.
Mileena is the obvious fighter to morph into, to get the match on an even ground.
But morphing into various characters can keep your opponent off balance.

Even if Shang morphs into Mileena the whole match, this is still probably a 7-3 or 8-2 match for Mileena.
 
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Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
@mortal_jason
@Konqrr
@MKillBill
@ZAQ

Do you think MK2 Mileena is the most "broken" character ever in 2d MK, because I do?
I even hold the idea that if you were to put her into any 2d MK game: UMK3, Trilogy, or MK9 that she would be the best character in the game, with combos, she'd be the best character in the game. You can adjust certain timing for MK9, but keep her sai timing the same, and her ball properties and telekick the same.
No, MKT Noob is by far the most broken... but she is up there.
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
@mortal_jason
@Konqrr
@MKillBill
@ZAQ

Do you think MK2 Mileena is the most "broken" character ever in 2d MK, because I do?
I even hold the idea that if you were to put her into any 2d MK game: UMK3, Trilogy, or MK9 that she would be the best character in the game, with combos, she'd be the best character in the game. You can adjust certain timing for MK9, but keep her sai timing the same, and her ball properties and telekick the same.
Human Smoke would block her Roll or Telekick, and do some moronic 50%+ combo. And she couldn't spam him coz he'd Telepunch.
The fact elite MK2 Reptiles can even beat Mileena means I'm sure UMK3 top tier would stomp her pretty good.

It's not like she has a cheap brainless infinite like Sonya's Leg Grab in MK1.
 
Better CQC?
Better zoning game?
Does Shang need to morph?
CQC is close, but Mileena has the edge. In terms of normal moves, Shang has better jabs, cross-over kicks, and hop-kicks to shut off escape attempts, but Mileena has the better sweep, and a better ducking low kick to help her escape Shang's rushdown. The roll is the trump card that give's Mileena the advantage up close. It forces Shang to block in situations where he might not otherwise have to, allowing Mileena to either escape and reset or initiate her own rushdown and/or zoning tactics.

The sweep game is a significant one in this battle. Shang's is a hair faster, but Mileena's has MUCH more range. If he lands a sweep, his follow up attacks are a bit limited; he can try for another sweep, he can try to cross her up, he can walk in for jabs, or he can pretend to walk in for jabs and then sweep again if her finger comes off the block button. All are somewhat predictable and no single option affords him major damage (which comes mostly off of keeping the pressure on and keeping the rushdown going for as long as possible).

If she lands a sweep, however, she has much better options. Like Shang, she can try for another sweep, she can try to cross him up, she can come in for jabs, or she can pretend to come in for jabs and then sweep again. The latter is a lot easier for her to pull off because she has a less awkward walk animation. Normally, Shang would easily be able to duck under her jabs, but there's that GODDAMN ROLL again. FUCK. The threat of an easy 30-40% combo forces Shang to block, which means he will usually have to eat chip damage on those goddamn jabs that he would otherwise be able to simply duck under, time, and counterattack. She can also use this to set up her zone tactics, which leads us to...

The zoning game, which is pretty even IMO. Again, Mileena's roll keeps him honest, as do sweeps, which is where many Shang players will try to zone you. Shang's quick sweeps (especially if she whiffs one just out of range, he has an easy counter), hop kicks, standing HK for anti-air, and fireballs all come in handy. In particular, the hop kicks and anti air fireballs force Mileena to be smart about how and when she throws out those air sais. From a distance perspective, Shang is best served to zone just out of sweep distance. This makes his jump kicks harder to anti-air uppercut, gives him a fighting chance at blocking a roll off a reaction in a clean connection, and gives him a good space to catch her with anti-air fireballs if she tries to jump. Mileena has two nifty zones; 1. at the edge of her sweep distance, which is just outside of Shang's and sets up a variety of attacks that he will have difficulty countering, and 2. just outside half screen, where she can more safely make choices about when to throw air sais as well as easily aa-uppercut jump in attempts.

Shang's morphs are a double edged sword. Without the morphs, Shang's game can become pretty predictable, but if he morphs unwisely, he can be easily countered during the startup animation (especially if Mileena is zoning from closer than half screen). Even if he does morph wisely, he's still at risk of getting caught in that ridiculous morph-back jab inifinite. I've been caught in that exactly twice the whole time I've been playing this game, the honors go to KanoMK2 and mortal_jason. Sometimes it becomes necessary to morph just to throw Mileena off her game plan and force her to play differently. Your best options to morph are Mileena, Raiden, Lao, Liu, and Jax. All radically change your strategy as well as hers, but as long as you're making her uncomfortable, you're doing something right. Try to limit morphing to when you have her in escape mode or while she's turtling with a life lead.

Jason mentioned already that, while Shang has the second best jump kick in the game, he has to be careful about jumping in on Mileena because she has aa-uppercuts all day long. It's worth noting that, while those female ninja aa-uppercuts are nassssty, they don't have as wide a collision box as, say, Liu's, so you can throw off her timing by altering where you are jumping from. Shang jump kicks are the easiest to uppercut from just outside half screen distance. Just inside half screen fucks up her timing royally, and most times she's resort to either blocking (which gives you a chance at rushing down) or ducking low kick underneath it, which is a risky strategy that doesn't always work. Use this to your advantage.

One other advantage Shang has that is rarely mentioned is his SUJK. That thing is nasty, the second best in the game behind Cage. Like Cage, Shang can snuff out Mileena's jump kicks, jump punches, SUJK, close air sais, and teleport kicks with it. However, also like Cage, it's difficult to execute off reaction and is generally done via anticipation, which also attaches a lot of risk. A bad SUJK with get you sais in the face if you're lucky, or a roll-jk-sais if you're not. Use wisely to throw her off her game, but don't abuse.

In general, I agree with most of Jason's points on this matchup, although I think it's closer to 6.5-3.5 than to 8-2.
 
@mortal_jason

@Konqrr

@MKillBill

@ZAQ



Do you think MK2 Mileena is the most "broken" character ever in 2d MK, because I do?

I even hold the idea that if you were to put her into any 2d MK game: UMK3, Trilogy, or MK9 that she would be the best character in the game, with combos, she'd be the best character in the game. You can adjust certain timing for MK9, but keep her sai timing the same, and her ball properties and telekick the same.
Oh, god no. She's the most abusable character in MK2, for sure, but even then, she has two even matchups in Liu and Jax and only holds a slight to moderate advantage over an equally skilled Lao, Raiden, Kitana, Scorpion, and Shang. The only massive advantages she has are over Reptile, Sub-Zero, Baraka, and Cage.

In 2D MK games, I'd rank MKT Noob, MKT Rain, MK3 Kabal, N64 MKT Sub-Zero (combined Classic and Unmasked Subbie; crazy abusable, check out some vids on Youtube, it's nasty!), MK1 Sonya, UMK3 Kabal (slightly less abusable than the MK3 version), and UMK3 Human Smoke all above her, in that order.

If you tried to throw MK2 Mileena into Trilogy, she'd eat over 50% combos every time she guessed wrong against Noob, Rain, and Human Smoke, and she wouldn't be able to spam sais against them, either, since the first two would willingly trade stun projectiles and the third would have an easy teleport-spear-pop up-spear-3 hit pop up-jk-air throw if she started to abuse it. She also couldn't trade projectile spam with Kabal, who has a more damaging air projectile which can also be done instantly and has a much larger hitbox. She'd be a force with run jabs, that nifty sweep, MK2 rolls, mk2 style quick air sai recovery, and some decent autocombos (esp. if she had a decent pop up), but she'd be more in line with Kung Lao, Nightwolf, Ermac, and Reptile than the god-tier characters. She'd be a hell of a lot better than the Mileena that's actually in the game, we can both agree on that!
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
Oh, god no. She's the most abusable character in MK2, for sure, but even then, she has two even matchups in Liu and Jax and only holds a slight to moderate advantage over an equally skilled Lao, Raiden, Kitana, Scorpion, and Shang. The only massive advantages she has are over Reptile, Sub-Zero, Baraka, and Cage.

In 2D MK games, I'd rank MKT Noob, MKT Rain, MK3 Kabal, N64 MKT Sub-Zero (combined Classic and Unmasked Subbie; crazy abusable, check out some vids on Youtube, it's nasty!), MK1 Sonya, UMK3 Kabal (slightly less abusable than the MK3 version), and UMK3 Human Smoke all above her, in that order.

If you tried to throw MK2 Mileena into Trilogy, she'd eat over 50% combos every time she guessed wrong against Noob, Rain, and Human Smoke, and she wouldn't be able to spam sais against them, either, since the first two would willingly trade stun projectiles and the third would have an easy teleport-spear-pop up-spear-3 hit pop up-jk-air throw if she started to abuse it. She also couldn't trade projectile spam with Kabal, who has a more damaging air projectile which can also be done instantly and has a much larger hitbox. She'd be a force with run jabs, that nifty sweep, MK2 rolls, mk2 style quick air sai recovery, and some decent autocombos (esp. if she had a decent pop up), but she'd be more in line with Kung Lao, Nightwolf, Ermac, and Reptile than the god-tier characters. She'd be a hell of a lot better than the Mileena that's actually in the game, we can both agree on that!
Well said, well said.
Also MK3 Sub-Zero- he's #1 in MK3 because of his Clone being unblockable up close.

Also I would argue Liu is the only even match up for Mileena.
She has a slight to moderate advantage over Jax, Lao, Raiden and Shang.
A substantial advantage over Kitana and Scorpion.
And blitzes Reptile, Sub, Cage, and Baraka.

Those are just my opinions, especially due to playing lots of long sets with Insane_Niki's Mileena.
 
Well said, well said.

Also MK3 Sub-Zero- he's #1 in MK3 because of his Clone being unblockable up close.



Also I would argue Liu is the only even match up for Mileena.

She has a slight to moderate advantage over Jax, Lao, Raiden and Shang.

A substantial advantage over Kitana and Scorpion.

And blitzes Reptile, Sub, Cage, and Baraka.



Those are just my opinions, especially due to playing lots of long sets with Insane_Niki's Mileena.


Honestly, without having seen any vids, I would have guessed that your Jax goes even with his Mileena and your Kitana probably takes roughly 4 out of 10, especially since you can iAF without sweeping first and giving it away (plus you space very well and any blocked roll/teleport kick from him is almost guaranteed 50% with your insane timing). To be honest, I'm going off of old stuff, too. Years ago I had seen videos of people roughing up Niki's Mileena with Jax in sets, but I have no way of knowing how much better he has got since then at dealing with Jax players who can GP under the sais and MGP. You can do both quite effectively AND you space very well, so I'd assume you go even with him even if he has improved, but I could be wrong.

A little off topic, but have you tried his Mileena with Lao?
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
Honestly, without having seen any vids, I would have guessed that your Jax goes even with his Mileena and your Kitana probably takes roughly 4 out of 10, especially since you can iAF without sweeping first and giving it away (plus you space very well and any blocked roll/teleport kick from him is almost guaranteed 50% with your insane timing). To be honest, I'm going off of old stuff, too. Years ago I had seen videos of people roughing up Niki's Mileena with Jax in sets, but I have no way of knowing how much better he has got since then at dealing with Jax players who can GP under the sais and MGP. You can do both quite effectively AND you space very well, so I'd assume you go even with him even if he has improved, but I could be wrong.

A little off topic, but have you tried his Mileena with Lao?
Most people would probably have said Mileena beats Kitana 9-1 until I got a bunch of streaks on Insane_Niki's Mileena with her.
It still is a nightmare match.
The Sai shuts down everything Kitana does. A great Mileena can time Sai so that Kitana's IAFs won't hit her.
Kitana's only saving graces are big damage combos if you're lucky enough to block a Roll, and that all her normals are the same as Mileena's.

Niki and I did 3 sets of Mileena vs Jax this year, 1st to 10 wins.
I believe the 1st and 3rd sets he won 10-7, and the 2nd one I won 10-7.
They were very close yes.
But Mileena has an advantage, if from nothing else, just that Jax has to work MUCH harder than her to win it.
Also from just around sweep distance, Jax cannot Ground Pound under her Sai.
So he is pretty much paralyzed and forced into blocking- taking chip damage to protect against the threat of her Roll.

I haven't played Niki's Mileena with Lao for a few years.
But Lao is a GREAT pick vs any Mileena.
Even though my Lao was sub-par, I was able to win about 1 out of 3 in that match up vs Niki.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
I feel this matchup is more 6-4 Mileena. Shang plays more of a footsie based game rather than zoning, looking for an opportunity to get in close and land a sweep or jump kick, then kara jabs to bait roll and set up his CQC. It's just hard getting in on her. I don't feel he needs to morph to be effecitve.

7-3 or 8-2 in every other game is a virtually unwinnable match, which this is not.

Since it's being discussed here, I'll post my thoughts in the correct thread - Mileena vs Kitana
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
I feel this matchup is more 6-4 Mileena. Shang plays more of a footsie based game rather than zoning, looking for an opportunity to get in close and land a sweep or jump kick, then kara jabs to bait roll and set up his CQC. It's just hard getting in on her. I don't feel he needs to morph to be effecitve.

7-3 or 8-2 in every other game is a virtually unwinnable match, which this is not.

Since it's being discussed here, I'll post my thoughts in the correct thread - Mileena vs Kitana
I wouldn't say 7-3 is virtually unwinnable though.
We consider Raiden vs Mileena as 7-3, because she has an obvious advantage.
But he can give her trouble and is a good pick vs her.
I'd consider 8-2 or 9-1 as nearly unwinnable (i.e. Cage vs Liu).

I guess personally I've never seen anyone that was as good with Shang as say, scorpangel is with Liu, so who knows.
But the infinite morph trap really gives Mileena an edge because her jabs are easy to start the infinite with.
If he doesn't morph, he can't really get in on her because her sweep is longer, and her uppercut will AA him every time.
And if he simply spams Skulls, she can outplay him with her specials.
 
I wouldn't say 7-3 is virtually unwinnable though.
I wouldn't either, especially because when we say 7-3 a lot of times we really mean 6.5-3.5 and just round to 7-3. To me, it's a moderate advantage. Anything more than 7-3 is a massive advantage. 9-1 is unwinnable, and yeah, to me that's a Scorpion/Liu type matchup.



If he doesn't morph, he can't really get in on her because her sweep is longer, and her uppercut will AA him every time.
Hop kicks, he just has to be careful. If she's smart she's going to duck and wait til he lands, then she can either escape and reset or she can initiate her own pressure. It's a tough play either way and he needs to be able to anticipate which one she is going to do and react well when she does it.

His only other play is to walk forward to bait out a whiffed sweep, then counter it with his own. This is risky for three big reasons.

1. This is difficult with Shang because his walk cycle is so fucking bad that it's easy to overstep while doing so and not be able to get out her sweep range in time.

2. The other problem with his walk cycle is that, even if he DOES get out her sweep range in time, his walk-back animation is sometimes still going. This is problematic because you can't start your sweep until that animation finishes. When this happens, you won't get your sweep off in time to counter her at her most vulnerable (while that leg is sticking out and extending her hitbox) and, if your counter sweep whiffs, she can cancel HER late recovery frames into a roll and you can do nothing about it but hold block and hope for the best. You can try to shave a couple of frames by cancelling Shang's walk cycle with karas, but that still often won't leave you with enough time to counter her sweep with your own.

3. Once you succeed in this tactic a couple of times against a top level opponent, they're simply going to adjust and roll you instead of sweep. You're going to be too close at that point to block the roll on reaction, so good luck anticipating it.

He's in a little bit of a pickle. He DOES have options, but they are tricky and not always reliable. And then even when he does get in, he has to worry about the roll. She has some of the best options to escape Shang's jab pressure in the entire game.
 

mortal_jason

Kitana's Bodyguard
I wouldn't either, especially because when we say 7-3 a lot of times we really mean 6.5-3.5 and just round to 7-3. To me, it's a moderate advantage. Anything more than 7-3 is a massive advantage. 9-1 is unwinnable, and yeah, to me that's a Scorpion/Liu type matchup.





Hop kicks, he just has to be careful. If she's smart she's going to duck and wait til he lands, then she can either escape and reset or she can initiate her own pressure. It's a tough play either way and he needs to be able to anticipate which one she is going to do and react well when she does it.

His only other play is to walk forward to bait out a whiffed sweep, then counter it with his own. This is risky for three big reasons.

1. This is difficult with Shang because his walk cycle is so fucking bad that it's easy to overstep while doing so and not be able to get out her sweep range in time.

2. The other problem with his walk cycle is that, even if he DOES get out her sweep range in time, his walk-back animation is sometimes still going. This is problematic because you can't start your sweep until that animation finishes. When this happens, you won't get your sweep off in time to counter her at her most vulnerable (while that leg is sticking out and extending her hitbox) and, if your counter sweep whiffs, she can cancel HER late recovery frames into a roll and you can do nothing about it but hold block and hope for the best. You can try to shave a couple of frames by cancelling Shang's walk cycle with karas, but that still often won't leave you with enough time to counter her sweep with your own.

3. Once you succeed in this tactic a couple of times against a top level opponent, they're simply going to adjust and roll you instead of sweep. You're going to be too close at that point to block the roll on reaction, so good luck anticipating it.

He's in a little bit of a pickle. He DOES have options, but they are tricky and not always reliable. And then even when he does get in, he has to worry about the roll. She has some of the best options to escape Shang's jab pressure in the entire game.
For sure, I second that all.
We're so used to playing online that we forget that offline the walk cycles of Shang, Baraka, Cage and Jax actually aren't THAT bad! :)
But yes, online, it can take like 3 seconds to do a sweep with those characters.
EXTREMELY frustrating.
Sometimes I'll go play og MK2 locally vs the AI just to remember how sweet Baraka and Shang feel when they can actually move!
When it comes to tier placement though, lag is irrelevant.

My point is that offline that match is probably close to 6.5-3.5 for Mileena.
We get so jaded from online play that it can influence us.
My initial judgment of 8-2 was a little high.
Offline at the elite level, Mileena wins 7-3.