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MK11's Gimped Neutral

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
just remove the knockback on projectiles
Why? Certain zones kinda rely on that like Cetrion Rock. And every move in the game has blockstun/pushback.
What I don't like is some of it doesn't function correctly like Kotals F24 has almost no pushback when opponents crouch block F24.
 

kcd117

Noob
Well he purposed to remove canceling dashes into buttons which would ruin so many characters. I'd be fine with Dash Block cancels bring removed but not canceling into normals.
They should be removed. I know it messes up combos and stuff but NRS should then adjust the characters to keep their dmg without them. The way they are rn, messes up the neutral game and literally makes some characters too good or too bad. Imagine for example how much better Frost would be if you couldn't just dash in on her while blocking everything she throws at you on reaction. And imagine how much more balanced Kang would be if he didn't have the option to turn a short range 9 frame 20-way mixup mid into a footsie range button with a dash cancel lol.

Imo, the only unpunishable way of moving in a fighting game should be walking in and out. Dashes need to have a recovery. They cover decent ground and are very fast (some are pure stupidity btw), there is no reason for them to be cancelable at any time with no recovery bc walking is already an option.

If NRS really wants to keep the dash canceling shit, it needs to go back to the beta state, but with the added option to cancel into normals to keep the combos since most that require dash canceling only need a small amount of movement. That way, if you cancel your dash at the starting frames you are able to cover a bit more ground than by just walking, but if you don't you have to go through recovery to make up for that extra distance you covered in a shorter period of time.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
They should be removed. I know it messes up combos and stuff but NRS should then adjust the characters to keep their dmg without them. The way they are rn, messes up the neutral game and literally makes some characters too good or too bad. Imagine for example how much better Frost would be if you couldn't just dash in on her while blocking everything she throws at you on reaction. And imagine how much more balanced Kang would be if he didn't have the option to turn a short range 9 frame 20-way mixup mid into a footsie range button with a dash cancel lol.

Imo, the only unpunishable way of moving in a fighting game should be walking in and out. Dashes need to have a recovery. They cover decent ground and are very fast (some are pure stupidity btw), there is no reason for them to be cancelable at any time with no recovery bc walking is already an option.

If NRS really wants to keep the dash canceling shit, it needs to go back to the beta state, but with the added option to cancel into normals to keep the combos since most that require dash canceling only need a small amount of movement. That way, if you cancel your dash at the starting frames you are able to cover a bit more ground than by just walking, but if you don't you have to go through recovery to make up for that extra distance you covered in a shorter period of time.
Like I said I'd be fine with dash cancels having recovery after the first dash cancel but not cancels into normals just block.
Meaning I want to retain the ability to dash into normals but would be fine with wave dashing and DC removed, things that allow players to go across the screen faster than walk could be removed

But I think this could be fixed by giving back dash invincible frames on startup that way it wouldn't matter if liu Kang did F43U3 Dash xx F4 because you could dash back and not get hit during startup making you invulnerable but not sure how many frames of invulnerability we would need.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
dash cancel into grab is one of the dumber things that exist due to this games movement mechanics. this is why most fighting games have non cancellable dashes to avoid dumb things like this. its literally a guess between dash up mid or throw at that point.

injustice 2's movement systems is overall better designed i think, could stand for slightly faster walkspeed maybe but other than that, was pretty damn good. you can't just bulldog your way in with run's like in mkx or wave dashing like you can here in mk11. you had to be a bit more careful with dashing in.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
But he is wrong tho, footsies isn't a game that you play on the training mode with a stand dummy.
Footsies its a game that it has to be played by two ppl, while both are trying to reach or play on their ideal spacing with normals, both are also closing in to and backing out to close or expand the gap. Cherny shot himself in the foot when he says "This game has no footsies".

the fact that he says dash advancing normals are stupid its just plain insanity, when if he is putting himself inside one's range he can be punished just as well or even worse, he can get shimmied out which also makes part of the overall footsie game.

Cherny also has underminded his reputation with a lot of trash information, so he lost his credibility, on top of that this video its just wrong in so many levels.
I understand all of this, but there are a lot of characters who can press buttons from half to fullscreen and not whiff (shang tsung, shao kahn, subzero, jade, etc) I think every character's normals reach too far or the walkspeeds are too slow for this game to have as pronounced spacing and footsies. Shimmying barely exists because once you're barely outside of characters' normal range you're at zoning distance. I feel like him saying "this game has no footsies" was an exasperated exaggeration to emphasize his main thesis.

Also what trash information? I always see so many people dogging on him and I never get a reason for all of this hate. I just see a lot of people trolling him and being mean for completely unrelated/meanspirited reasons.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I always see so many people dogging on him and I never get a reason for all of this hate. I just see a lot of people trolling him and being mean for completely unrelated/meanspirited reasons.
It does seem that way it must be popular opinion to hate him in certain communities.

As too your comments on footsie:
I feel its not uncommon to Wiff punish at high level. I feel it makes up at least 50% if the game. Its focused heavily on staggers, footsie and number of hit mix with some zoning.

How is Shang not Wiff punishable? His F24 has massive range but if you bait the first two he is easily punished on F242/F243 having more than 30f recovery on most normals.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I always see so many people dogging on him and I never get a reason for all of this hate. I just see a lot of people trolling him and being mean for completely unrelated/meanspirited reasons.
It does seem that way it must be popular opinion to hate him in certain communities.

As too your comments on footsie:
I feel its not uncommon to Wiff punish at high level. I feel it makes up at least 50% if the game. Its focused heavily on staggers, footsie and number of hit mix with some zoning.

How is Shang not Wiff punishable? His F24 has massive range but if you bait the first two he is easily punished on F242/F243 having more than 30f recovery on most normals.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
It does seem that way it must be popular opinion to hate him in certain communities.

As too your comments on footsie:
I feel its not uncommon to Wiff punish at high level. I feel it makes up at least 50% if the game. Its focused heavily on staggers, footsie and number of hit mix with some zoning.

How is Shang not Wiff punishable? His F24 has massive range but if you bait the first two he is easily punished on F242/F243 having more than 30f recovery on most normals.
i never said he's not whiff punishable and i never said that whiff punishes dont happen, however normals with that much range are absolutely ridiculous and it's more of a "whiff kounter" cuz chances are you weren't outside of its range and just interrupted the animation
 

kcd117

Noob
Saying the game has no neutral/footsies is an exageration.

This game has pretty decent neutral and footsies, even the shittiest fundamental games like MKX still have neutral and footsies, even when they are played with 2 hit armored moves and run-button-powered half screen normals leading into +20 situations for real full combos 50/50s.

This game’s neutral is actually really good when compared to the past NRS titles, even to MK9 sometimes which in my opinion had the best neutral despite having cancelable dashes, but had too many characters that you just didn’t want to play neutral against due to 100% resets or the most insane pressure and mixups if you happened to fuck up.

The thing is, would this game’s neutral neutral game and footsies be more proeminent if dash canceling was removed or toned down? Imo, absolutely yes bc people would have to think about dashing as it would be riskier, walking would play a bigger part in the meta, the (already strong) shimmy game would be improved, spacing your movements would be harder and more important, etc.

There is not a single thing (besides the combo extensions) that dash blocking does that walking is not able to do, only the latter takes more thought and skill to master and use properly and is easier to balance.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Honestly if this game changed so you couldn’t dash cancel into normals, I would probably just throw in into the trash bin. The already watered down to fuck combo system would become nonexistent and more importantly it would turn footsies into a cellphone game. What do you do if ur opponent is walking back expecting a normal and preparing to whiff punish? I dash cancel into a normal aiming where he’s walking to... what would you propose I do? slowly walk his ass into the corner from mid stage? Real fun game. Some of you guys should try guilty gear out and see how damn fun that style can be before we talk about omg fireballs so op, dash so op. Turn this into street fighter?
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Removing dash cancelling would just make keep away characters sky rocket through the tierlists. I'm gonna be super fucked in many matchups as Johnny Cage if I cannot dash cancel after f344 forceballs on block. If I just go for another f3/f4 people can dodge my simply walking backwards. I can catch them with a microdash on a read (in either case their poke or jab combostarter beats me if they decide to hold still). The only thing I would get if this was implemented is a fucking SHADOWKICK that's minus a gazillion.

But then again you were the one advocating for him to lose his plus frames if his whiffing was fixed lul.

The changes you suggest would give rushdown focused characters with a subpar projectile game a really hard time. But hey you play Scorpion and can always teleport so what the heck. I do see what you're getting at, and in Shang's case it's really fucking strong. I think it's more of a problem that we have all these fast advancing normals that are MIDS. They should be slow if advancing, like Shang, like Kotal, like Johnny, especially if they are hit confirmable. And honestly a lot of the time, many characters pokes just shutdown advancement. Like that's what Jade, Cetrion and Sub does, just throw out d4's to check. A lot of the time people dont have range, microdash or not, to whiff punish it, not reactionary anyway.

It's not as simple as just removing a mechanic. YOUR character has options, many dont. Kotal is gonna suck even mroe without his dash cancel.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
Despite
Saying the game has no neutral/footsies is an exageration.

This game has pretty decent neutral and footsies, even the shittiest fundamental games like MKX still have neutral and footsies, even when they are played with 2 hit armored moves and run-button-powered half screen normals leading into +20 situations for real full combos 50/50s.

This game’s neutral is actually really good when compared to the past NRS titles, even to MK9 sometimes which in my opinion had the best neutral despite having cancelable dashes, but had too many characters that you just didn’t want to play neutral against due to 100% resets or the most insane pressure and mixups if you happened to fuck up.

The thing is, would this game’s neutral neutral game and footsies be more proeminent if dash canceling was removed or toned down? Imo, absolutely yes bc people would have to think about dashing as it would be riskier, walking would play a bigger part in the meta, the (already strong) shimmy game would be improved, spacing your movements would be harder and more important, etc.

There is not a single thing (besides the combo extensions) that dash blocking does that walking is not able to do, only the latter takes more thought and skill to master and use properly and is easier to balance.
I agree there is a bit of exaggeration in these lands.

I didn't like how many things ended up being in mk11, and I was not sold into movement either.

Also, about the "mk11 is the most balanced mk" I sometimes hear out there, I absolutely disagree. The imbalance of this game just comes from factors that are different to the failures of the other titles. The slower pace of the game (compared to mkx for example) doesn't mean there is not a lot of crazyness in mk11. I'm still puzzled that fatal blows went through testing phase. And krushing blows, despite being very appealing visually, have been poorly executed and distributed among the cast. It is sad that the two main new mechanics this game offers are probably the main source of problems.

The way the game plays, still promotes that single mistakes or guesses cost a lot of damage, which is not the way, imo. Sometimes I feel this game makes old mistakes just in a new disguise. This is first version though, I'm pretty sure the game will improve a bit through patching for those who stick with it.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Despite


I agree there is a bit of exaggeration in these lands.

I didn't like how many things ended up being in mk11, and I was not sold into movement either.

Also, about the "mk11 is the most balanced mk" I sometimes hear out there, I absolutely disagree. The imbalance of this game just comes from factors that are different to the failures of the other titles.
There’s absolutely no question that this is the most balanced MK at launch we’ve had.

I don’t even think that this is up for debate. MK9 was literally broken at launch, and stuff like MKX vanilla Raiden, Quan Chi, and Erron, not to mention the early DLC like Tanya, are head-scratchers.
 
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Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Only thing I agree with is that some characters need more recovery on blocked projectiles. It's insane that some characters have a projectile blocked point blanke that's like, -14 on block, pushes back, and I'm forced to use the only normal that reaches which is 11 frames. So now you have to wait till fucking block stun ends, and figure out when you can actually move and attempt a punish. Oh and if you're online, adjust for the 3 frame delay. AWESOME!

I mean Kano's blade toss is like -8 on block. Kabal's buzzsaw and Cage's forceball, -10. Raiden's lightning, -11, Kang's fireballs, and Sonya's rings -15....and so on. WHY? You can do most of these at jump in range and be totally safe, especially online. That's insane.
 
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Vslayer

Curses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
Only thing I agree with is that some characters need more recovery on blocked projectiles. It's insane that some characters have a projectile blocked point blanke that's like, -14 on block, pushes back, and I'm forced to use the only normal that reaches which is 11 frames. So now you have to wait till fucking block stun ends, and figure out when you can actually move and attempt a punish. Oh and if you're online, adjust for the 3 frame delay. AWESOME!

I mean Kano's blade toss is like -8 on block. Kabal's buzzsaw and Cage's forceball, -10. Raiden's lightning, -11, Kang's fireballs, and Sonya's rings -15....and so on. WHY? You can do most of these at jump in range and be totally safe, especially online. That's insane.
Yo Kano needs it. XD
 

LarSanity

Who hired this guy
Really? you used cage as a example cmon man the character that gets poke out of most his strings and OP forceballs whifff blocking opponents.
Ok anyways isnt every thing you mentioned footsies like knowing your range and the opponents ?

On a side note charging for public info is not right but anyone that is shaming disabilities are a whole other level of scum bags
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Why? Certain zones kinda rely on that like Cetrion Rock. And every move in the game has blockstun/pushback.
What I don't like is some of it doesn't function correctly like Kotals F24 has almost no pushback when opponents crouch block F24.
Because you can zone without gaining gaining a lot of space because you're opponent blocked twice. Making your opponent block twice and pause their movement is the whole reason you started zoning.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
i never said he's not whiff punishable and i never said that whiff punishes dont happen, however normals with that much range are absolutely ridiculous and it's more of a "whiff kounter" cuz chances are you weren't outside of its range and just interrupted the animation
Glad you didn't ssh those things my bad. But if you are playing at a high level chances are you will be just outside of its range and can easily bait wiffs.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
There’s absolutely no question that this is the most balanced MK at launch we’ve had.

I don’t even think that this is up for debate. MK9 was literally broken at launch, and stuff like MKX vanilla Raiden, Quan Chi, and Erron, not to mention the early DLC like Tanya, are head-scratchers.
Well, you are focusing on character balance (btw mk11 is no free of bs in that department, but ok). I'm thinking more about general mechanics. And regarding those, specially the new ones, I don't see a fantastic balance in mk11, specially considering what nrs should have learned from past mistakes.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
They should be removed. I know it messes up combos and stuff but NRS should then adjust the characters to keep their dmg without them. The way they are rn, messes up the neutral game and literally makes some characters too good or too bad. Imagine for example how much better Frost would be if you couldn't just dash in on her while blocking everything she throws at you on reaction. And imagine how much more balanced Kang would be if he didn't have the option to turn a short range 9 frame 20-way mixup mid into a footsie range button with a dash cancel lol.

Imo, the only unpunishable way of moving in a fighting game should be walking in and out. Dashes need to have a recovery. They cover decent ground and are very fast (some are pure stupidity btw), there is no reason for them to be cancelable at any time with no recovery bc walking is already an option.

If NRS really wants to keep the dash canceling shit, it needs to go back to the beta state, but with the added option to cancel into normals to keep the combos since most that require dash canceling only need a small amount of movement. That way, if you cancel your dash at the starting frames you are able to cover a bit more ground than by just walking, but if you don't you have to go through recovery to make up for that extra distance you covered in a shorter period of time.
This is actually propoganda. Every BnB in this game works without dash canceling, they just become slightly harder (OH NO EXECUTION REQUIREMENTS!?)
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Removing dash cancelling would just make keep away characters sky rocket through the tierlists. I'm gonna be super fucked in many matchups as Johnny Cage if I cannot dash cancel after f344 forceballs on block. If I just go for another f3/f4 people can dodge my simply walking backwards. I can catch them with a microdash on a read (in either case their poke or jab combostarter beats me if they decide to hold still). The only thing I would get if this was implemented is a fucking SHADOWKICK that's minus a gazillion.

But then again you were the one advocating for him to lose his plus frames if his whiffing was fixed lul.

The changes you suggest would give rushdown focused characters with a subpar projectile game a really hard time. But hey you play Scorpion and can always teleport so what the heck. I do see what you're getting at, and in Shang's case it's really fucking strong. I think it's more of a problem that we have all these fast advancing normals that are MIDS. They should be slow if advancing, like Shang, like Kotal, like Johnny, especially if they are hit confirmable. And honestly a lot of the time, many characters pokes just shutdown advancement. Like that's what Jade, Cetrion and Sub does, just throw out d4's to check. A lot of the time people dont have range, microdash or not, to whiff punish it, not reactionary anyway.

It's not as simple as just removing a mechanic. YOUR character has options, many dont. Kotal is gonna suck even mroe without his dash cancel.
I mean, I think you missed where I said all projectiles and anti zoning options as a result would also have to take huge recovery hits. I've thought about this already.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I understand all of this, but there are a lot of characters who can press buttons from half to fullscreen and not whiff (shang tsung, shao kahn, subzero, jade, etc) I think every character's normals reach too far or the walkspeeds are too slow for this game to have as pronounced spacing and footsies. Shimmying barely exists because once you're barely outside of characters' normal range you're at zoning distance. I feel like him saying "this game has no footsies" was an exasperated exaggeration to emphasize his main thesis.

Also what trash information? I always see so many people dogging on him and I never get a reason for all of this hate. I just see a lot of people trolling him and being mean for completely unrelated/meanspirited reasons.
Yeah people are entirely missing the point. Footsies don't exist because the intersection between projectiles and dash cancel normal ranges leave no mid range to be found at all. I just want the game to have an in between, right now I feel it's a game of extremes.