MK 11: Passive Meter Analysis

[Demon_0]

I'm fine with the meter system in this game. However, I feel like once you use breakaway, meter regen should be WAY slower. And get rid of the dumb, sporadic instant-regen that happens at the very next round.

 

[grandabx]

Not to mention games like Injustice, Injustice 2 and MKX with traits, stamina, etc.

You're really going to equate running and traits to what MK 11 does?

You have to build general meter manually in MKX/InJ. How often do you see a trait on average in a match compared to meter burn in MK 11? How often can you break or amplify in X/Inj compared to 11? Can you sit back block/crouch with no meter and rely on a Clash?

After using meter, 11 basically goes into Halo-mode. Nothing else is required of the player to use higher power/tech options. Your "power" heals on its own.

Participation award/benefits...

Running is like a held forward dash in Guilty Gear or fly/unfly mode in Marvel, BUT requires meter. Without additional offensive/defensive applications, they don't do anything on their own. Traits are like once a match.

Those mechanics don't allow for ultra passive (do nothing) play and the way they're designed they can never be. They're not something to rely on because of how infrequent they are. They have one function while meter in 11 is multi-purpose.

Like Tom said in the video, regenerating meter homogenizes character archetypes and creates function/goal imbalance.

Here's an example of how when meter is earned, archetypes and skilled desicion-making open up.

 

[grandabx]

Just bc you have the meter when you start doesn't mean there isn't risk when using it. Damn near everything that is worth using has risk. There isn't an issue of risk vs reward in MK11.

Wreckless players get their shit kicked in if they don't actually think about their decisions when using meter.

Fatal blow coming back and meter regeneration are 2 different things. Personally I believe FB should be 1 and done once used. But when it comes to meter you completely ignore the consequence of using it and it being read. In a real time situation it matters whether you have it or not. And you have to make sure you use it at the right time

What?

It's basically telling the player "you failed at doing your job, but try again". Promoting artificial comebacks. Coddling. Rubber-band mechanics. The equivalent of the Blue Shell item in Mario Kart. It doesn't even have a real distinguishable start-up activation (most-likely on purpose).

Unlike supers, you don't have to build it up. It comes automatically as soon as you reach a certain health threshold.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I'm not against the meter regen at all, i think it's good, except when it regens at round end taunts.

No meter in this game in my honest opinion should regen if characters are in between round transitions, this feels like nothing but would make a massive impact on how meter is used.

Maybe some regen rates should be different that if they already aren't. Or maybe the regen should take slightly a little more.

But doesn't really bother me as much.

What it's really annoying it's the accidental breakaway inputs.

 

[Savage8-8]

What?

It's basically telling the player "you failed at doing your job, but try again". Promoting artificial comebacks. Coddling. Rubber-band mechanics. The equivalent of the Blue Shell item in Mario Kart. It doesn't even have a real distinguishable start-up activation (most-likely on purpose).

Unlike supers, you don't have to build it up. It comes automatically as soon as you reach a certain health threshold.

If you read the next sentence after that you would realize I don't want the FB to come back or have a cool down once used. They are too powerful and a missed/blocked fatal blow should never come back.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You're really going to equate running and traits to what MK 11 does?

You have to build general meter manually in MKX/InJ. How often do you see a trait on average in a match compared to meter burn in MK 11? How often can you break or amplify in X/Inj compared to 11? Can you sit back block/crouch with no meter and rely on a Clash?

After using meter, 11 basically goes into Halo-mode. Nothing else is required of the player to use higher power/tech options. Your "power" heals on its own.

Participation award/benefits...

Running is like a held forward dash in Guilty Gear or fly/unfly mode in Marvel, BUT requires meter. Without additional offensive/defensive applications, they don't do anything on their own. Traits are like once a match.

Those mechanics don't allow for ultra passive (do nothing) play and the way they're designed they can never be. They're not something to rely on because of how infrequent they are. They have one function while meter in 11 is multi-purpose.

Like Tom said in the video, regenerating meter homogenizes character archetypes and creates function/goal imbalance.

Here's an example of how when meter is earned, archetypes and skilled desicion-making open up.

They were two examples of mechanics that use cooldowns. I don't think it's that complicated.

And it seems impossible for meter to homogenize character archetypes -- in fact it's the opposite, because all characters actually get to use their unique MB specials more often. Whereas in the past, you might be completely at the mercy of the opponent's ability to build and use meter while you could not, resulting in a lopsided situation where only one character gets to do what they're best at. That argument doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Traits are like once a match.

You’ve never actually watched and Injustice match have you? Look up any pro competition or War of the Gods or any ranked video from any YouTuber you can find that traits recharge very quickly, and are pretty much the main mode of offense for some characters. While they obviously might not recharge as fast as you might a bar of meter, but that’s because the frame data was vastly different. So many characters had very good staggers (better than those in MK11), lots of plus frames to enforce (even armoured plus frames) that allowed them to build a lot of bar in a relatively short amount of time, all the while their trait was recharging to help them do more offense.

 

[Obly]

@Obly I agree meter was awful in Injustice 2. Imo meter building would work best as a disincentive for abusing a move or mechanic that’s otherwise hard to balance. Imagine in Injustice 3 there’s passive regen and spamming projectiles could result in your opponent gaining extra meter if they flawless block the projectiles. Meter could reward skilled defense and discourage predictable offense

MK11 already added several new mechanics to cut down on zoning: shorter stages, stronger counter-zoning options, a cap of two bars for amplifying attacks, and passive regen eliminates any meter-building advantage for spamming projectiles. I think those have all been good adds, and I hope they make it into the next game (hopefully Injustice 3!).

Why put meter-building rules back in the middle of it? Anything truly broken, unfair, or abusable should be patched out. Anything short of that is fair game; it's up to you to punish predictable offense.

I don't personally want to see the return of a bunch of arbitrary meter-building rules that serve no real purpose other than to restrict players' options and limit how they can play. Passive regen needs more tweaking but it fundamentally works, and it opens up a lot of freedom. Devs should set fair rules for the game ofc, but otherwise should try as much as possible to get out of the way; they shouldn't be dictating which kinds of play get rewarded and which get punished. Again, that's your job as the opposing player.

 

[scrubjesus111]

MK11 already added several new mechanics to cut down on zoning: shorter stages, stronger counter-zoning options, a cap of two bars for amplifying attacks, and passive regen ...

My bet is the next Injustice will iterate on mechanics from the Injustice games, pretending like MK11 never existed. If NRS does choose to forgo meter building for passive regen then that might suffice for the meter system, but then again maybe not. Long stages are prob returning along w traditional 4 bars of meter and a roster full of power zoners (nearly every DC hero or villain has a trademark projectile eg Superman’s eye-lasers, Batman’s batarangs; it’s no wonder zoners are the dominant archetype in these games). Passive regen would favor the stronger zoner still since they could keep the opponent outside of their effective range while regenerating meter, rinse, repeat. With really strong zoning tools, it’d effectively transpose into the same dynamic we had with projectile-spam meter building.

Passive regen plus meter building via flawless blocking could be one solution to this. It’s a way to temper zoning without totally watering it down, as ppl have complained is the case w MK11, and to give some satisfying engagement to the approaching player. Something needs to be done to change up the spam spam spam vs. tedious walk and block gameplay.

I hear what you’re saying that conditional meter-building is an artificial and restrictive way of balancing the game, but I’d take anything over how zoning was in Injustice 1 and 2.

 

[Jbog]

Forget the wave dash and use the standard block dash zoning problem fixed

 

[trufenix]

I've never seen an argument this dumb go this far

 

[trufenix]

We should make it like other games, where only some characters get to use their metered moves, while some get utterly and horribly screwed because their armor, good wakeups, or safe pressure are locked behind meter gain.

 

[Marlow]

Look up any pro competition or War of the Gods or any ranked video from any YouTuber you can find that traits recharge very quickly, and are pretty much the main mode of offense for some characters.

Especially characters like Atrocitus. He almost lived and died by his trait.

 

[Marlow]

How often can you break or amplify in X/Inj compared to 11?

I'd say more often in MKX/Injustice to MK11. In MK11 the defensive bars take something like 15-20 seconds to come back, so I think it's basically twice at most per round.

After using meter, 11 basically goes into Halo-mode. Nothing else is required of the player to use higher power/tech options. Your "power" heals on its own.

Those mechanics don't allow for ultra passive (do nothing) play and the way they're designed they can never be.

From what I can see of watching competitive play though, this doesn't equal passive play by the players. Just watching top level players in tournament and online, none of them seem to be adopting what I'd call ultra passive game styles.


I don't think there's a right or wrong answer when it comes to how meter systems should work. Having meter be "earned" and built through player actions is fine, but so is treating meter like a cool down ability. Both have pro's and con's.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I'd say more often in MKX/Injustice to MK11. In MK11 the defensive bars take something like 15-20 seconds to come back, so I think it's basically twice at most per round.

Meanwhile you have MKX Mileena where you can break 3 times per round while doing 35% meter less combos, or Thunder God Raiden who can build 7 bars of meter in a round for his safe armoured attack

 

[DarkSado]

Meanwhile you have MKX Mileena where you can break 3 times per round while doing 35% meter less combos, or Thunder God Raiden who can build 7 bars of meter in a round for his safe armoured attack

Oh oh Reo burner account.

 

[Pyrosis]

MK11 meter system is fine the way it is.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

The video is also about universal mechanics and I agree that universal mechanics is one of the reasons why zoning is a bit underwhelming in this game. Because if a power zoner were to exist, they should have a very difficult time getting up, but the universal wakeup system makes that impossible. You could give them a crappy U2/U3, sure, but forward roll still exists. It's the forward roll that makes you not want to oki and if you're backing away after knocking down a power zoner that's just wrong. So zoning is a scaled back as a result.

As for Jacqui being too strong due to auto regen, I don't agree. In the old system you built meter while chipping and doing specials and Jacqui spends a lot of time doing both. She would have built back bar while pressuring you and the pressure would be non-stop. The only problem I have now it's there's simply not enough time to capitalize on a meterless Jacqui but that has to do with regen rates and not regrn itself.