Match-up Discussion Mileena Matchup Discussion Thread

[Konqrr]

I realize that there might be a matchup thread already in this forum, but the point of this thread is to discuss matchups to make the Matchup Chart as accurate as possible.

The Matchup Chart thread:
http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?3075-Mortal-Kombat-(2011)-Matchup-Chart

When you discuss or list what you think the matchups are, please do so in alphabetical order. Also, they should be listed in either whole numbers or .5 notations.

The current Matchup Chart for Mileena is as follows:
6-4 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
4-6 vs Cyrax
5-5 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
4-6 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
6-4 vs Johnny Cage
4-6 vs Kabal
5-5 vs Kano
xxx vs Kenshi
5-5 vs Kitana
6-4 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
4-6 vs Nightwolf
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
5-5 vs Raiden
xxx vs Rain
7-3 vs Reptile
5-5 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
5-5 vs Shang Tsung
7-3 vs Sheeva
6-4 vs Sindel
xxx vs Skarlet
4-6 vs Smoke
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
5-5 vs Stryker
5-5 vs Sub-Zero

Agree? Disagree? DISCUSS!

 

[TheChad_87]

There is NO way that Mileena v Kung Lao is 6-4.
This is a 4-6 at best, & even then, that's pushing it. This is a horrid match-up for Mileena. He counters everything she does. & if he plays the rushdown, she can't do much at all. Her normals are slow.
My vote is 3-7 in favor of Lao.

Shang Tsung 5-5 So long as she plays smart, she can get in & stay in (4,2, Tele, iAS, Roll, 4,2, Tele does 27% & the empty teleport puts her on top of him - i've literally won matches with just this string & iAS). Shang's normals are so slow, he has a hard time fighting back. His ground skulls do make D4 less useful, though.
I say 6-4 in favor of Mileena.

The others, I agree with or don't know enough about to say any different.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Mileena is probably , 4-6 against Kung Lao. It's a hard match to her.

 

[CitizenSnips]

I'm kind of confused as to why she is 6-4 against Kung Lao. Seems like Mileena really can't do much in that matchup except hope to punish and throw sais like a boss.

 

[sleepykyo]

Shouldn't Mileena v. Kitana be 6-4 in Mileena's favor? At the very least the zoning game favors Mileena.

-Kitana's fans do more damage but Mileena's sais are faster.
-Mileena can also teleport over fans and can roll under air fans.

 

[TheChad_87]

The point of this thread is to discuss why you think it should be something different than what is listed.

Several players contributed to get the numbers, but obv they are open for individual bias. Konqrr is just trying to reach a general consensus.

EDIT:

Shouldn't Mileena v. Kitana be 6-4 in Mileena's favor? At the very least the zoning game favors Mileena.

-Kitana's fans do more damage but Mileena's sais are faster.
-Mileena can also teleport over fans and can roll under air fans.

Mileena doesn't hit for 45+%. I play lots of good Kitanas & I never feel like I have the advantage. Mileena is very high risk & Kitana punishes hard.

 

[Konqrr]

The problem right now with most Mileena players is that they use the Telekick and :en Telekick like it's safe. It is absolutely NOT safe and like Kitana's d1, once people learn how to deal with it, it's effectiveness will be less.

Mileena sai and air sai are extremely good and beat Kitana's fan game, but once Kitana gets close and is in range to punish them, Mileena has to do something. She can't jump, she can't roll safely, she can't ground sai anymore, she can't telekick. Once Kitana gets in range, the matchup heavily favors Kitana.

Random rolls blow you up when you blink. Kitana has to respect the roll, but when she blocks it, she gets nearly 50%. What other character that is not Kung Lao with Xray can say that?

 

[ZeroEffect]

My thing with most matchup chart analyses, is that, 1.) I never understood the purpose in ".5" ratings. It's impossible to win half a match, so it just seems weird to say. And 2.) it has to be done with the character's tools in mind as opposed to what players habits are. (For example, even if Mileena players are currently abusing telekick incorrectly, it just means that those players are doing something wrong. It doesn't necessarily mean that Mileena the character has any disadvantage.)

At any rate, here's my two cents (maybe 10 cents) on the Mil/Kit matchup. (Green=pros; Pink=cons)

Konqrr - I'm in agreement that Mileena beats Kit, though not by a lot. Mainly because her tools are designed to counter most of what Kitana wants to do before she can get in range. The only time i can really see Mil having real trouble with her is when cornered.

- The biggest advantages Mil has, is that not only can she win the zoning game, but if Kitana leaves the ground to do an air fan, even iAF, roll will win as long as Mileena isn't fullscreen away.

- If Kitana does get within range, Mileena just wants to reset positioning and get away. This can be risky since she mostly has to jump and air fan would kill her if read. But again, the risk/reward for her trying to read a jump over is in Mil's favor. If Mil doesn't jump, she can roll once Kit leaves the ground. Even if roll doesn't punish her air attack, it'll go under her and move her quite far away from Kitana; forcing her to try and get back inside. Mileena can fake jump into air telekick to throw off any reaction based air fans, as well as fake jump into sai to bait reaction fan lifts.

- Mileena with X-ray can be a bit of an issue for Kitana at the range Kit feels comfortable. Any kind of Fan or potential frame trap will be armored through, and limits Kitana's pressure options; making her have to read more carefully than she should. This probably will end up happening more than usual due to the fact that Kitana's combos are mostly unbreakable. Mileena won't be able to use up meter as often for breaking like she would against most opponents.

- Instant Square boost can be a problem for Mileena at times, as it's fast enough to make ground sai risky at ranges where she can't throw them on reaction. (EN Square boost has armor I believe) But since it knocks down a ways, it won't hurt Mil's position as long as Mileena doesn't get up near a wall.

- Spacing for Mil is extremely important here. Rolls are to be respected, but because of that, any form of hesitation on Kitana's part to bait out a roll, will give Mil a chance to D4, or attempt a jump away/jump over if she's too close to her "sister". D4 is just slightly longer reach than Kit's D1, but isn't nearly as fast. If Mileena can see that sweet spot where she'll win out, (I need to work on this, myself) she can still throw this out to keep Kitana from approaching too aggressively with rapid dash blocking or whatever.

- Delayed airsai/EN airsai will help control the air while jumping away in case Kitana does react with anti air fans or Boost. At worst they'll trade, keeping them apart as well as negating any combo followups.

- If Kitana gets a good punish off of rolls or telekick, or even punishes a jump attempt, she really racks up the damage. Mileena doesn't have the best comeback factor, so if Kit is sitting on a serious lead in life, Mileena has to gamble far more frequently. And as we all are painfully aware, gambles for Mileena are often punishable by death.

So I would say this is 6/4 for Mileena. (Barring any player exploits or bad habits or matchup ignorance.) I guess it could be seen as more of a 5.5/4.5 for those of you who believe in half won matches. But I don't, so, I say 6/4.

 

[ZeroEffect]

And who said Kung Lao loses to Mileena? Kung Lao F3 beats everything she has except low pokes. I want to see that write up.

Also like to add that I believe Mileena is:

4/6 against Noob Saibot
5/5 with Smoke
5/5 with Reptile (MAYBE 6/4. no way is the match that bad for him)
6/4 against Stryker
And 6/4 against Sub Zero (patch pending)

 

[TheChad_87]

I really can’t get behind the statement of Mileena beats Kitana. I think Mileena has all the tools, but it is NOT an easy match for her at all.
I don’t see how the risk/reward is ever in Mileena’s favor. If she jumps away and it pays off, she lives and puts Kitana back to square one dealing with her zoning, but if she jumps away and gets hit, she kisses 45% of her health goodbye.The reward of resetting positions with Mileena at an advantage versus the risk of losing half your life doesn’t sound very good to me.
Mileena has to be careful with the Roll here. Kit is going to bait it out.
Mileena’s X-Ray is an issue for Kitana? Kitana’s X-Ray is game-breaking against Mileena as it counteracts her zoning attempts.
Mileena can’t throw out EN moves. If she does, and she’s hit by a F+2 or an Air Fan, she dies. And you don’t win ½ a match. The charts are based on out of 10s, but sometimes a character will win 5/10 but 55/100. This is when .5s are handy.

- I can agree with Smoke being 5/5.
- I also think SubZ is probably a 6-4 right now. Mileena’s Sai lock him down, but I’m curious to see the patch changes to SubZ.
- I haven’t played many Noobs or Strykers so I can’t say for sure on those.
- Mileena vs Reptile is DEFINITELY a 6.5/3.5 or 7/3. This is an awful, awful match for him. He cannot zone her at all. Roll goes under forceballs and Teleport Drop goes over. If she is close enough, she can actually hit a Bite on reaction to the start-up animation of a Forceball/Acid Hand and knock him out of it. All he can do is try to Elbow Dash and apply pressure on her, but she can easily shut that down with her H/M/L mix-up options once he gets in. She can also knock him out of the Elbow Dash with her Bite. The EN version will even cause knockdown and put him right back to square one. He also loses his ability to cancel D+4 into Acid Hand because Milly's D+4 will beat it out everytime. The only way Reptile is getting in is with Elbow Dash on wake-up using the invincible frames, but a good Mileena player, knowing this, will just back up when he gets knocked down and use Bite to catch him at the end of the dash. Actually, this strategy will shut down ALL of his wake-up game as it will catch Elbow Dash and force Slide to miss completely. And if he decides to get cute and try a forceball or Acid Spit, she has the Roll to punish with full combo. I really don't see what Reptile can do here.
If Reptile wants to win this one, he has to be a Jedi.

 

[CorruptSOuls]

all good zoning/teleporting enemies are hard for mileena. i doubt ermac is 5-5, shang tsung 5-5
or mb its just my noobness...

 

[TheChad_87]

all good zoning/teleporting enemies are hard for mileena. i doubt ermac is 5-5, shang tsung 5-5
or mb its just my noobness...

I didn't even notice Ermac was listed as 5-5. I actually think Ermac is a tough match-up for her. He punishes a blocked Tele or Roll with full combo off of Forcelift. I think a lot of Mileena players carelessly throw out the tele (which they obviously shouldn't) like it's safe, and this makes it a horrible match-up. A lot of Mileenas will call this 3-7, but it's not THAT bad. Ermac's tele does prevent her from abusing iAS, but he has to be good with his timing because the Sai is quick and it will knock him out of a tele if he hesitates. Ermac's specials are also very punishable if he just throws them out. His ability to Forcelift on wake-up affects Mileena's ability to keep pressure up as well. Basically both characters punish each others mistakes, but Ermac punishes harder than Mileena. I agree with you that this is in his favor, I'd call it:
4-6

Shang Tsung isn't a bad match-up, really. She just can't zone him out like she can against many others. Shang Really has a hard time with anyone who can teleport. And Mileena has a pretty nifty string for keeping pressure up (4, 2, Tele, iAS, Roll, 4, 2, Tele). It deals 27% and ends with her standing beside a downed opponent. Against character like Shang and Sindel who have terribly slow normal, Mileena can keep pressure up with this string and her mix-up. Shang's c.Ground Skull makes D4 a risk and his f.Ground Skull makes it so she can;t iAS from full screen, but aqs long as she doesn't abuse these two tricks, I don't feel like she struggles at all in this match-up. I actually think it's a 6-4 in HER favor, and most Shang Players would agree that it's a tough match-up. But, a lot of Mileena players think this one is difficult as well, so I guess the middle ground is to call it 5-5. I think, however, that its:
6-4

 

[ZeroEffect]

I really can’t get behind the statement of Mileena beats Kitana. I think Mileena has all the tools, but it is NOT an easy match for her at all.
I don’t see how the risk/reward is ever in Mileena’s favor. If she jumps away and it pays off, she lives and puts Kitana back to square one dealing with her zoning, but if she jumps away and gets hit, she kisses 45% of her health goodbye.The reward of resetting positions with Mileena at an advantage versus the risk of losing half your life doesn’t sound very good to me.

The reason why I believe risk/reward favors her in this instance, is because Kitana has one favorable scenario while Mileena has several. Kitana has to hit her and does a lot of damage, yes. But look at it this way....

- If Mileena jumps cancelling into air telekick and Kitana reacts to the jump with an air fan, she gets hit out of the sky for a combo.
- If Mileena jumps cancelling into air sai and Kitana reacts to the jump with an air fan, they trade, no combo. Kitana will get more damage, but she gains no ground on her.

So yeah, damage wise, if Kitana does guess her jump and there's no mistake, she wins. But there are more ways for her to guess incorrectly given the tools in that situation.

Mileena has to be careful with the Roll here. Kit is going to bait it out.

Baiting is a player skill not a character tool. Everyone can bait a roll, so this is irrelevant.

Mileena’s X-Ray is an issue for Kitana? Kitana’s X-Ray is game-breaking against Mileena as it counteracts her zoning attempts.
Mileena can’t throw out EN moves. If she does, and she’s hit by a F+2 or an Air Fan, she dies.

Not necessarily. At range, IAS will recover in time to block her X-ray even if thrown at the same time; thus damaging Kitana and blowing her meter for nothing.
Why can't Mileena use EN moves? Because they're unsafe? If that's the case she loses to 90% of the cast.

And you don’t win ½ a match. The charts are based on out of 10s, but sometimes a character will win 5/10 but 55/100. This is when .5s are handy.

Hm, well ok... thanks for clearin it up. But still, as far as I'm concerned, if a character matchup is so complicated to determine that it has to go for 100 matches, it's an even matchup.

- Mileena vs Reptile is DEFINITELY a 6.5/3.5 or 7/3. This is an awful, awful match for him. He cannot zone her at all. Roll goes under forceballs and Teleport Drop goes over. If she is close enough, she can actually hit a Bite on reaction to the start-up animation of a Forceball/Acid Hand and knock him out of it. All he can do is try to Elbow Dash and apply pressure on her, but she can easily shut that down with her H/M/L mix-up options once he gets in. She can also knock him out of the Elbow Dash with her Bite. The EN version will even cause knockdown and put him right back to square one. He also loses his ability to cancel D+4 into Acid Hand because Milly's D+4 will beat it out everytime. The only way Reptile is getting in is with Elbow Dash on wake-up using the invincible frames, but a good Mileena player, knowing this, will just back up when he gets knocked down and use Bite to catch him at the end of the dash. Actually, this strategy will shut down ALL of his wake-up game as it will catch Elbow Dash and force Slide to miss completely. And if he decides to get cute and try a forceball or Acid Spit, she has the Roll to punish with full combo. I really don't see what Reptile can do here.
If Reptile wants to win this one, he has to be a Jedi.

1. Roll going under forceballs is random and unreliable. Most of the time roll loses. Even then EX forceball charged beats it AND telekick.
2. Elbow dash beats every pressure tactic she has. If he dashes at her after blocking anything she's forced to defend or try to jump. The only pressure she gets is after getting a jump in punch blocked. (which works on every character). H/M/L mixups don't matter against dash. She has to use roll to punish. It's a damn good punish but extremely hard to nail.
3. Reptile mid range EX FB charged shuts down her wakeup entirely. Period. She must eat chip damage like she's starved.
4. Reptile doesn't need to zone her. Just needs to get through sai lockdown. She can lock him down well, that's very true. (I did say this was closer to 5/5 after all; not 7/3 in Rep's favor.) When he does, and gets combo damage+knockdown, Mileena has to be extremely careful.
5. Mileena's lack of comeback factor comes into play because when Reptile gains momentum there's little Mil can do to stop it.
6. Bite beating out forceball and dash? Talk about being a Jedi...

I can't see it as being awful for him. I've discussed this matchup a lot with reptile players. I'm willing to settle for a 6/4 if it's proven that no rep player can find a way around her. but no way is it 7/3.

 

[TheChad_87]

I didn't say she couldn't use EN moves, I said she can;t throw them out recklessly like she can against half the cast. She needs the breaker (Same is true for the Cyrax Match-up)
Yes, every character can bait the Roll, but not EVERY character can punish it for 40+%. That is Kitana specific.

My Roll has never lost to a regular Forceball. I didn't even know it was possible for a regular Forceball to hit her out of it at all -_-. In fact, I almost always Roll on reaction to it.
I don't understand how Elbow Dash beats out everything she has. All she has to do is read that it's coming (and it will be VERY often) and Bite.

I stand by ALL my points, I almost ALWAYS use Bite against Reptile on his wake-up and it almost always snuffs him out, so I must be a Jedi ^_^. The Jedi part of this is as follows: Is Reptile on the ground? If yes, step back 1 step and use Bite.

I will say that my main sparring partner is a Reptile main, so perhaps most of this is match-up experience and knowing how to read him better than most others, but I do well enough with others, too that I strongly feel like it's 7-3 if Mileena knows his tricks and knows her own tools.
We'll just have to wait and see what others have to say about it as well.

I can't see it as being awful for him. I've discussed this matchup a lot with reptile players. I'm willing to settle for a 6/4 if it's proven that no rep player can find a way around her. but no way is it 7/3.

No one's saying he can't find a way around her. If so, it'd be a 10-0. he CAN win, it's just a very hard match-up.

 

[ZeroEffect]

The difference, really, is I figure out matchups without any regard to things like baiting, reading, adapting, etc. Because that doesn't determine the matchup. If anything, it just determines which player can figure out the other player. I just use different possibilities based on what each character can do and what each character has problems with. The minute we start using those kinds of player skills, the actual matchup analysis is lost in favor of who outplayed who.

If Mileena reads reptile correctly, she can beat him. If Mileena reads Kung Lao correctly she can beat him too. Yet, these are two very different matchup ratings for her, you know what I mean?

And yes, my rolls have lost to forceballs on and off regularly. Man, if only she could roll under those all the time... Using Bite in such a way means the rep is either being hella predictable, or who knows... maybe you are a jedi

 

[TheChad_87]

The difference, really, is I figure out matchups without any regard to things like baiting, reading, adapting, etc. Because that doesn't determine the matchup. If anything, it just determines which player can figure out the other player. I just use different possibilities based on what each character can do and what each character has problems with. The minute we start using those kinds of player skills, the actual matchup analysis is lost in favor of who outplayed who.

If Mileena reads reptile correctly, she can beat him. If Mileena reads Kung Lao correctly she can beat him too. Yet, these are two very different matchup ratings for her, you know what I mean?

And yes, my rolls have lost to forceballs on and off regularly. Man, if only she could roll under those all the time... Using Bite in such a way means the rep is either being hella predictable, or who knows... maybe you are a jedi

Haha! and as I said, you could very well be right. All of this is just my own personal experience.

I also tend to take into account that 2 high level players are going to be playing the match-up. I understand that reading will give any character an edge (It's how I have 19 Kung Lao kills with Sheeva - ^_^ yes I keep a count lol), but I do think things like baiting and reading should be considered in terms of characters like Kitana, who punishes so heavily off of ONE correct read and Mileena who relies SO heavily on mind games... I see your point as well though. ^_^

Nice to have a mature discussion on the subject instead of "You're wrong. You suck!" Haha!

 

[ZeroEffect]

Nice to have a mature discussion on the subject instead of "You're wrong. You suck!" Haha!

Yeah, really. It's always a relief to find people who can argue match-ups without turning to insults or getting a big head from being a "well-known player who must be respected at all times".

 

[CorruptSOuls]

the match up / skill thing is all about how much a mileena has to be better in skill to defeat a kung lao... and a how much worse mileena can still win vs lets say scorpion (one of my best match up) and in reverse. so actually you can say out even there is the skill difference of course that who can cancel the other character's skill better with his own skills that are not so skill based (like spin... every noob can spin )

 

[Somberness]

1. Roll going under forceballs is random and unreliable. Most of the time roll loses. Even then EX forceball charged beats it AND telekick.
2. Elbow dash beats every pressure tactic she has. If he dashes at her after blocking anything she's forced to defend or try to jump. The only pressure she gets is after getting a jump in punch blocked. (which works on every character). H/M/L mixups don't matter against dash. She has to use roll to punish. It's a damn good punish but extremely hard to nail.
3. Reptile mid range EX FB charged shuts down her wakeup entirely. Period. She must eat chip damage like she's starved.
4. Reptile doesn't need to zone her. Just needs to get through sai lockdown. She can lock him down well, that's very true. (I did say this was closer to 5/5 after all; not 7/3 in Rep's favor.) When he does, and gets combo damage+knockdown, Mileena has to be extremely careful.
5. Mileena's lack of comeback factor comes into play because when Reptile gains momentum there's little Mil can do to stop it.
6. Bite beating out forceball and dash? Talk about being a Jedi...

I can't see it as being awful for him. I've discussed this matchup a lot with reptile players. I'm willing to settle for a 6/4 if it's proven that no rep player can find a way around her. but no way is it 7/3.

Forget all that, if she had better normals she would have a block infinite against Reptile. Are you aware of this?

Okay, not sure if people know some of this stuff, but if you do, just bringing it into the limelight:

With Mileena, most characters can standblock her teleport and in order for sai to hit, she has to let herself drop before it will hit, leaving her open to AA combos from everyone in the game...except for Reptile. Reptile's standblock hitbox is low...very low. In fact it is the lowest in the game. So low, that Mileena can instant sai after, and it jails, and she's at advantage. Reptile can punish it by crouchblocking like every other character, but unlike everyone else, his normals are slow, and as such, he won't be able to do it often. Reptile can also d4 to duck under teleport and even potentially hit it, but the timing is REALLY strict and you aren't doing it on reaction. Simply put, Mileena can abuse teleport vs Reptile, and at best, if it's crouchblocked, there's about no reward other than frame advantage. This makes the Mileena matchup SO difficult...3-7 in her favor isn't looking too far out the picture.

poke~telesai repeated = salty Reptile player. You're allowed to do jump kick~teleport with little risk...

 

[ZeroEffect]

the match up / skill thing is all about how much a mileena has to be better in skill to defeat a kung lao... and a how much worse mileena can still win vs lets say scorpion (one of my best match up) and in reverse. so actually you can say out even there is the skill difference of course that who can cancel the other character's skill better with his own skills that are not so skill based (like spin... every noob can spin )

Not sure what you're saying here actually... care to elaborate?

Forget all that, if she had better normals she would have a block infinite against Reptile. Are you aware of this?

poke~telesai repeated = salty Reptile player. You're allowed to do jump kick~teleport with little risk...

I'm sure I mentioned the jailing thing somewhere. Must've been in a different thread. Oh well...

I don't know exactly how much advantage blocked air sai gives, but if her follow up pokes really can't be interrupted by anything reptile has, then maybe.

 

[Somberness]

I was exaggerating with the block infinite as the teleport isn't even fast enough to jail off any of her normals and for the height of the air sai, you'd probably need a D1-level fast attack with a lot of block stun to have something be a guaranteed block/damage scenario. It's actually not that much advantage but it allows you to go airborne safely which is something Reptile can't handle too well.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Oh, well never mind then. Actually, seems to me every character can go airborne vs reptile. He doesn't exactly have the best anti-air save for EN Force Ball.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Ok so, after attempting to go into other matchup discussions concerning Mileena, (Mainly Noob, Rain, Cyrax, and Sub Zero), I've either not had any respones at all, or no one can find a consistent number to agree upon.

I said vs Sub Zero is a 6/4 Mil's favor; most of them say even or 6/4 Sub's favor
vs. Noob Saibot is a 6/4 Noob's favor; most of them say even or 6/4 Mil's favor
vs. Cyrax is currently even, but in my opinion it's a 6/4 mil's favor; Most of them say it's 6/4 Cyrax
vs. Rain I was asking for input on and haven't heard anything yet.

So maybe people will come here for these discussions since this is focusing on Mileena specifically.

 

[CorruptSOuls]

smoke totally shuts down mileena. it is no way an 5/5 rather a 3,5/6,5, since at meele smoke wins.u cant zone as mileena vs smoke,

 

[cyke_out]

Ok so, after attempting to go into other matchup discussions concerning Mileena, (Mainly Noob, Rain, Cyrax, and Sub Zero), I've either not had any respones at all, or no one can find a consistent number to agree upon.

I said vs Sub Zero is a 6/4 Mil's favor; most of them say even or 6/4 Sub's favor
vs. Noob Saibot is a 6/4 Noob's favor; most of them say even or 6/4 Mil's favor
vs. Cyrax is currently even, but in my opinion it's a 6/4 mil's favor; Most of them say it's 6/4 Cyrax
vs. Rain I was asking for input on and haven't heard anything yet.

So maybe people will come here for these discussions since this is focusing on Mileena specifically.

I don't see how Sub has the edge over Mileena. she can outzone him from full screen, sais stops his slide, she can't throw sais mid screen for fear of trading with ice ball, but sub can't throw iceball either for fear of eating a roll.

Noob, I feel is even. both have counters vs the other one, and it comes down to player ability.

Cyax has the edge vs anyone, to me. but only becuase his damage is so insane. Yes mileena has an easier time getting in on him and escaping bombs and nets, but he only needs one mistake from the mileena player to really hurt her.