Strategy - Cryomancer Meterless Vortex?

[boba_buster]

Meterless vortex?
I know there will be people that blow me up for this or disagree , but I figured it was worth posting.
I have a little pseudo vortex I like to use with cryo , it works good for me but ymmv.
really interested in people's opinion on this as it has been discussed a little here but not much.
Basically everytime you land a hammer you try to loop it back into another hammer (vortex)
My go to for starting this up is string into hammer then whiff slide -
Whiffing the slide can cross up inputs if they try to wake up.
After the whiffed slide sub is around +6 from my testing. The important thing is inputing slide just as the hammer hits because if delayed at all you are negative , hammer recovers much faster on hit as apposed to on block.
First and foremost I must say that wake up armor will always win as this is a vortex on knock down and not a traditional mk vortex based off of jailing after a restand. If you think they will armor you should block and punish, if they have safe armor you probly shouldn't be using cryo anyway because he is a punish heavy character and doesn't get many openings against opponents with safe specials especially ones with armor when ex'ed. So there we have the armor option covered. Now what I usually go for first is 12xxhammer , works great at mixing ppl up , people generally want to block high against cryo in fear of the b2 43% combo, and 12 has great advancing range. Now if they do block the whole string your going to want to back dash , there are a few moves that can punish hammer and the backdash after hammer but it's not many. Once again if your opponent can , you might not want to be using cryo. If they press buttons after your backdash trying to chase it and whiff then you can whiff punish with 12xxhammer or 12xxexhammer. Now if they start abusing the gap of 12xxhammer by jumping out or armoring on reaction to seeing the hammer , you can use f4 hammer and blow them up for it as it is a true blockstring or just finish the 123 string as there is no gap. If they respect the 12 and block low after the whiffed slide you can start with b2 into your 43% bnb. Eventually they will try to njp on wake up , but being +6 or so if you make the read you can beat them with your own njp into b2 run f43throw hammer. Tested against quan's stupid fast njp and it beats it every time. also for delayed wake up cross up jip 12 works pretty well. So basically it's a lot of fast reads to loop back into hammer.

did they block hammer? Backdash or just block.
Did they press buttons After your back dash? 12xxhammer again.
think they will armor? Block and punish.
think they will jump or armor on reaction to the hammer? F4xxhammer. Think they will njp? Njp them first.
Think they will they block low ? B2 starter.
Think they will delay wake up? Cross up jip into 12/b33/f33/b2 mix up.
There is also the option of not whiffing the slide at all and pressuring.
Most of this isn't fully tested as I'm not much of a lab junkie but it would be great to hear the sub community's feedback and results of others testing on this. Now none of this is anything guaranteed but I've been playing cryo this way for a while and have had good success.

 

[boba_buster]

@RM Ree
@Dankster Morgan
@GOL Eklectic
@Xxonemanwolfpax

 

[Dankster Morgan]

This seems worthwhile to keep in mind. Nice work. I haven't used this variation in a long time though, I must admit.

 

[ArmageddonUMK]

When I used to use cryo a lot, whiffing slide after a hammer ender was a staple in my offense. Using the options you described, you can do some serious damage real quick. I know he's a punish based character but he absolutely has some relentless offense, once you get an opening of course

 

[Shade667]

@Gilbagz

 

[Pan1cMode]

Isn't the safe jump kick superior in every way though? If they armour you block (and potentially punish). If they block you're hella plus from the meaty kick and get a free 50/50 stagger string/pressure. If they back dash you can chase them down on reaction. If they delay wakeup you get your 50/50 anyways. If they do anything else they get hit with your meaty kick.

 

[Gilbagz]

Yeah, slide cross over is decent. but it isnt something you want to base your game on. You need to know your optimal options based on match ups, there is no one size fits all. Have to lab hard, and test what you want to use for every match. You cannot brain dead your approach. You can't just straight 5050, cant just play stagger, you have to mix up ALL of your options.

 

[RM Ree]

I like this discussion, I've always had a lot of fun playing Cryomancer. I use the HKD > slide a lot myself, just for the extra bit of meter. I'm also a pretty big fan of HKD > jip> 111 armor breaks.

At the end of the day I feel like it's a pretty honest oki. I much prefer the 2 bar option after the b2 BnB (end with cold blooded xx ice blast, jip, f12).

 

[boba_buster]

Also I've tested whiff slide 111 to armor break slow armor like quan chi , blows up his njp too if I remember.
It would be nice to have an actual cryo main go and test this stuff at the character specific level

 

[Lokheit]

Are you sure it's +6? It has been a long time since I experimented with it but always felt like less when testing against identical SZ moves. Another useful thing if the opponent has meter and safe armor and you need a breather, is a fast run followed by a slide (need good timing with the run for the slide to whiff) to put you at full screen (negative but at that distance you will be prepared for anything he throws if he gets the reversed commands right).

 

[boba_buster]

I have to retest to be sure as it's been a while since I've actually labbed this stuff , I know with a simple jump test sub comes off the ground a good bit faster. The trick is you have to have slide come out right as the hammer hits the ground , hammer recovers very fast on hit

 

[colby4898]

There is no reason to ever respect 12~hammer though. You can jump put, armour, meterless reversal or even just poke out with normals for a meterless full combo punish.

 

[boba_buster]

There is no reason to ever respect 12~hammer though. You can jump put, armour, meterless reversal or even just poke out with normals for a meterless full combo punish.

Your absolutely right . But the other options is what they respect that get them hit by 12hammer. Realistically f33 hammer is probly a better string to use for this , 12 hammer is jus what I've always used , it's always worked so never really bothered changing it up

 

[crosshair271]

I usually hammer, slide, cross-up JIP, (here are my variants)

• Throw
• B2, etc
• B33xxEX hammer, etc
• F33xxEX hammer, etc
• 12xxEX hammer, etc
• D3, Throw
• D3, B2, etc
• D3, B33xxEX hammer, etc
• D3, F33xxEX hammer, etc
• D3, 12xxEX hammer, etc

Good thing about the cross-up JIP is it messes up their inputs for wake-ups or reversals and you can pseudo break armor from recovering fast from the JIP.

The other recent vortex I learned from the Melbourne player Gilbagz is hammer, JI2(for more plus frames), etc. You can then do all the variants from before.

• Throw
• B2, etc
• B33xxEX hammer, etc
• F33xxEX hammer, etc
• 12xxEX hammer, etc
• D3, Throw
• D3, B2, etc
• D3, B33xxEX hammer, etc
• D3, F33xxEX hammer, etc
• D3, 12xxEX hammer, etc

 

[boba_buster]

The problem is it's easy to get trip guarded for the jip after whiffed slide , but yea I do that sometimes just to double cross up there inputs, I like the d3 poke idea never tried that

 

[crosshair271]

The problem is it's easy to get trip guarded for the jip after whiffed slide , but yea I do that sometimes just to double cross up there inputs, I like the d3 poke idea never tried that

DJT used to do it a lot as Sub. Other players do it for their characters too. I just prefer it over D1 poke because they actually have to block low and Sub tends to low profile a lot of moves because he is so low and leans back.

 

[RM Ree]

There is no reason to ever respect 12~hammer though. You can jump put, armour, meterless reversal or even just poke out with normals for a meterless full combo punish.

While you can jump out of 12 xx hammer (and most other strings into hammer), you have to let go of block to do it. It's kind of a hard read in some cases. If he commits to MB hammer, uses ice burst or completes the 123 string, you'll get hit for trying.

 

[colby4898]

While you can jump out of 12 xx hammer (and most other strings into hammer), you have to let go of block to do it. It's kind of a hard read in some cases. If he commits to MB hammer, uses ice burst or completes the 123 string, you'll get hit for trying.

Jumping out sure, but why even jump out if you can react to a 31f overhead with a normal to interupt it completely. The only time it will mess up is if they do ex ammer.

 

[boba_buster]

Jumping out sure, but why even jump out if you can react to a 31f overhead with a normal to interupt it completely. The only time it will mess up is if they do ex ammer.

You don't have cancel into hammer , you can finish the 123 string or cancel into ice burst. I think what makes this work is the fact that cryo has more options to keep you in the loop than the opponent has to get out. For every one option you have to get out cryo has two more to keep you in , you just have to constantly change it up and not get repetitive

 

[colby4898]

You don't have cancel into hammer , you can finish the 123 string or cancel into ice burst. I think what makes this work is the fact that cryo has more options to keep you in the loop than the opponent has to get out. For every one option you have to get out cryo has two more to keep you in , you just have to constantly change it up and not get repetitive

But im saying you can react to 12~hammer and interrupt. It's not a read where if I think youll do hammer I try to interupt and get hit by 123. Hammer has 31 start up frames, you can react.

 

[boba_buster]

Yes and no , I mean ... 12 comes out fast , if your expecting the 12 hammer then yea 100% I agree. But when you don't know what's coming next it's hard to prepare yourself mentally to interrupt something. You can wake up blocking low and preparing to interrupt that hammer , but what if I b2 you on wake up? What if I cross you up again with a jip ? What I I just f3 stagger into throw? That's what makes it hard to interrupt. Cryo's options after that hard knock down are really overwhelming in my opinion. Honestly I can probly count on one hand how many times ppl have jumped out of interrupted my hammer cancels , other than armor that is , I've had that happen plenty of times

 

[colby4898]

Yes and no , I mean ... 12 comes out fast , if your expecting the 12 hammer then yea 100% I agree. But when you don't know what's coming next it's hard to prepare yourself mentally to interrupt something. You can wake up blocking low and preparing to interrupt that hammer , but what if I b2 you on wake up? What if I cross you up again with a jip ? What I I just f3 stagger into throw? That's what makes it hard to interrupt. Cryo's options after that hard knock down are really overwhelming in my opinion. Honestly I can probly count on one hand how many times ppl have jumped out of interrupted my hammer cancels , other than armor that is , I've had that happen plenty of times

I'm not saying react to the 12, react to the hammer after the 12. If you jip, then I don't have to interupt 12~hammer. If you b2, I don't have to interrupt 12~hammer. I'm not saying the only thing I'm going to block is 12~hammer, that's the only thing I'm looking for and if you do anything elseI'm gonna get hit. Im saying if you do 12 hammer at any point during a match, there is no reason what so ever to respect the hammer.

 

[boba_buster]

I hear ya , maybe I just never played anyone who knows the cryo mu as well as you. Do you play sub zero ?

 

[colby4898]

I hear ya , maybe I just never played anyone who knows the cryo mu as well as you. Do you play sub zero ?

No, I don't play sub zero. And I don't even know the cryo mu that well, mostly play against grandmasters.

 

[boba_buster]

So you interrupt on reaction to the hammer? That's exactly what f4 hammer is for.