Question - Thunder God Maintaining pressure with Raiden

[DDutchguy]

Something I very often run into while playing Raiden, Thunder God specifically, is that it never feels like it's my turn. Raiden has too much recovery on his normals and strings to stagger strings for pressure and his cancel seems too slow and - to be good for pressure. As such, I'm having real trouble not giving my opponent opportunities to get their game going at every turn.

Raiden players (Thunder God at least), what do you use for pressure? The thing for Raiden's neutral seems to be to end everything in lightning strings which leaves you quite minus. Maybe I'm just missing something big. Should the cancels perhaps be used more like Jax's for mind games? (Though Raiden's recovery frames seem too long for it to work.)

@Nivek @Shawnzzy @BigMilk @Barrogh @Monopolymanguy

 

[Scott The Scot]

Yo just fiddy fiddy dawg ez pz

 

[DDutchguy]

Yo just fiddy fiddy dawg ez pz

R-right yeah.

 

[Baconlord]

@Monopolymanguy

@buyacushun what do you think monopoly man guy

 

[DanableLector]

@Scott The Scot is right. In thunder god your best option is f21 sadly. Raidens about dat 50/50. As long as your opponent has been conditioned to block lightning, you should be able to go f12 then b2, b3, throw, or another f12 if your feeling ballsy. 21 stagger is "meh"

Also much like Mileenas ex roll, people will respect raidens armor. That gives you more time to stagger poke etc.. Again comes down to conditioning. As long as you check them with ex db2 and ex df2 on wake up and after lightning strings on block once in a while you should be good.

Hes just doesn't have block pressure like a lot of characters. What he has is crazy meter building, chip, 50/50s, armor, corner carry, damage, and restands. What he doesn't have are reliable mids in any form, be it specials, or normals/strings. His pokes are ass, and for your own good Fear low profiling. D4s are death.

 

[buyacushun]

I don't play TG since I can rushdown with Cassie and Kotal but I'm sure the feeling is worse in Dispacer and MoS Raiden. The only thing I've been able to stagger effectively is F12. Which I'm guessing TG can't do because that's a lightning string right? F12 being -2 and having an extension in F12B2 allows me some leeway even though the B2 part has a gap. I tend to go for a throw after a blocked F12 but I guess if you have them conditioned enough you could get a 50/50 in. Usually when I'm playing Raiden I try to be reactive since Displacer can only get +1 off of F2,2+4. I'm using D1 and D3 to counter poke a lot. Then if I feel my opponent is getting predictable in neutral I fish for a F4. When I can play again I want to try fitting in superman neutral punishes. Basically looking for every avenue to get them to the corner and flip coin. But no I never feel I'm in control until I have my opponent in the corner, I hit them, and I just did the fireball +9 reset. Or if they are prone to bad jumps.

One aspect I'm having trouble in is meter. I'm either spending it on armor to alleviate Raiden's stagnant neutral. Or to wakeup. Or Breakers. Or for EXDF2. But it always feels like I'm thinking 30 seconds ahead every time I spend bar. "Ok if I go for the damage here am I sure I won't get knocked down or need to break?" "Should I go for this armor read?" Yeah those are basic fighting game things. But it feels worse when I play Raiden I don't know why. Playing Cassie and Kotal I never find myself as worried about meter as I do with Raiden. Maybe I'm not teleport enough I don't know. Does teleports build meter?

@Monopolymanguy

@buyacushun what do you think monopoly man guy

Now I feel like I shouldn't have changed my avatar. . . .

 

[DDutchguy]

I don't play TG since I can rushdown with Cassie and Kotal but I'm sure the feeling is worse in Dispacer and MoS Raiden. The only thing I've been able to stagger effectively is F12. Which I'm guessing TG can't do because that's a lightning string right? F12 being -2 and having an extension in F12B2 allows me some leeway even though the B2 part has a gap. I tend to go for a throw after a blocked F12 but I guess if you have them conditioned enough you could get a 50/50 in. Usually when I'm playing Raiden I try to be reactive since Displacer can only get +1 off of F2,2+4. I'm using D1 and D3 to counter poke a lot. Then if I feel my opponent is getting predictable in neutral I fish for a F4. When I can play again I want to try fitting in superman neutral punishes. Basically looking for every avenue to get them to the corner and flip coin. But no I never feel I'm in control until I have my opponent in the corner, I hit them, and I just did the fireball +9 reset. Or if they are prone to bad jumps.

One aspect I'm having trouble in is meter. I'm either spending it on armor to alleviate Raiden's stagnant neutral. Or to wakeup. Or Breakers. Or for EXDF2. But it always feels like I'm thinking 30 seconds ahead every time I spend bar. "Ok if I go for the damage here am I sure I won't get knocked down or need to break?" "Should I go for this armor read?" Yeah those are basic fighting game things. But it feels worse when I play Raiden I don't know why. Playing Cassie and Kotal I never find myself as worried about meter as I do with Raiden. Maybe I'm not teleport enough I don't know. Does teleports build meter?



Now I feel like I shouldn't have changed my avatar. . . .

A teleport builds 1/16th of a bar so that's not really something you can build meter off of. But yeah TG is pretty different from the other two variations if only because of F12B2. I'm also having problems with meter management since it feels like you pretty much always need it with Raiden.

 

[buyacushun]

How do you go about meter management while taking advantage of Displacer Raiden's E teleport? I usually use it for wake up. I need to work on using it mid match but it's pretty hard to find the "correct" time to use it. @BigMilk

 

[BigMilk]

How do you go about meter management while taking advantage of Displacer Raiden's E teleport? I usually use it for wake up. I need to work on using it mid match but it's pretty hard to find the "correct" time to use it. @BigMilk

I don't think there is a correct time to use it which why it may be tough implementing at first. It's one move that has several applications and just takes work and time getting them all down. His meter is solid because he does so well against pressure. F12b2 also builds great meter for him. The toughest part for me is , I think the same issue Lao players were having early on, that he is very reminiscent of mk9 Raiden but can't be played that way. You MUST use ex Tele offensively to make him work. Most people don't understand that yet

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Make sure that the threat of YOLO EX Shocker and Flying thunder god is always there

 

[buyacushun]

I don't think there is a correct time to use it which why it may be tough implementing at first. It's one move that has several applications and just takes work and time getting them all down. His meter is solid because he does so well against pressure. F12b2 also builds great meter for him. The toughest part for me is , I think the same issue Lao players were having early on, that he is very reminiscent of mk9 Raiden but can't be played that way. You MUST use ex Tele offensively to make him work. Most people don't understand that yet

Can you explain "his meter is good because he does well against pressure"?

F12b2 is nice but has an armor gap and his negative. Wish it was either plus or no gap. You can armor back in some cases but then that's bar being spent.

As for needing to use ex tele. That's exactly my problem. You use ex tele for a frame trap or a mixup but you most likely need meter for more damage to break 20%.

Idk for me if it feels like EVERY time I want to do something I'm thinking about spending bar but I don't have blockstrings or abusable specials to build meter.

 

[BigMilk]

Can you explain "his meter is good because he does well against pressure"?

F12b2 is nice but has an armor gap and his negative. Wish it was either plus or no gap. You can armor back in some cases but then that's bar being spent.

As for needing to use ex tele. That's exactly my problem. You use ex tele for a frame trap or a mixup but you most likely need meter for more damage to break 20%.

Idk for me if it feels like EVERY time I want to do something I'm thinking about spending bar but I don't have blockstrings or abusable specials to build meter.

Ex Tele negates a lot of pressure you would normally have to deal w
F12b2 is good. It has a gap but he has plenty of ways to discourage pressing buttons at that gap. It's only slightly negative. I honestly think that the gaps make the string better. Those are reads that have to be made as a player.
Meterless oh gets 24-26%, meterless safe low is 17%, 6frame meterless punish is 27%. He naturally builds decent meter, it's not the best but it doesn't mean he won't have any to spend. Also 112 is a 3hit string that's plus on block.

 

[buyacushun]

Ex Tele negates a lot of pressure you would normally have to deal w
F12b2 is good. It has a gap but he has plenty of ways to discourage pressing buttons at that gap. It's only slightly negative. I honestly think that the gaps make the string better. Those are reads that have to be made as a player.
Meterless oh gets 24-26%, meterless safe low is 17%, 6frame meterless punish is 27%. He naturally builds decent meter, it's not the best but it doesn't mean he won't have any to spend. Also 112 is a 3hit string that's plus on block.

I get how to use the gap but it seems weird that it has a gap and no part of it is plus. So you either try to read/react to a gap punish or read/react to someone trying to pressure your negative frames. I agree the string is still good and it works. Just seems odd to me is all.

As for meterless damage I was talking about after using EX teleport and your options from there. I was talking about his safe meterless options from there. I'm happy with the damage off of F1 and the increase you could get from the risky overhead. But after spending meter, you have to either take risk or spend more meter.

112 is +2 but the pushback doesn't really give him anything. What do you do after 112?

All this brings up my other complaint about Raiden. He has areas where he takes risk for a bigger payoff or spend meter to try and get some other mixup going. But Raiden feels like the exception. He just feels he has to try harder at things. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in MKx it feels like a disadvantage mechanically in the game. To me Raiden feels like Iron Man in UMvC3. He isn't bad. But it feels like picking him is just picking a harder version of another character. Just trying to explain where I'm coming from.

 

[BigMilk]

I get how to use the gap but it seems weird that it has a gap and no part of it is plus. So you either try to read/react to a gap punish or read/react to someone trying to pressure your negative frames. I agree the string is still good and it works. Just seems odd to me is all.

As for meterless damage I was talking about after using EX teleport and your options from there. I was talking about his safe meterless options from there. I'm happy with the damage off of F1 and the increase you could get from the risky overhead. But after spending meter, you have to either take risk or spend more meter.

112 is +2 but the pushback doesn't really give him anything. What do you do after 112?

All this brings up my other complaint about Raiden. He has areas where he takes risk for a bigger payoff or spend meter to try and get some other mixup going. But Raiden feels like the exception. He just feels he has to try harder at things. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in MKx it feels like a disadvantage mechanically in the game. To me Raiden feels like Iron Man in UMvC3. He isn't bad. But it feels like picking him is just picking a harder version of another character. Just trying to explain where I'm coming from.

And I agree, it does feel like you have to with harder w Raiden. I was referring to a defensive ex Tele but I see now you meant canceling into ex tele. His overhead is safe as well though

 

[buyacushun]

And I agree, it does feel like you have to with harder w Raiden. I was referring to a defensive ex Tele but I see now you meant canceling into ex tele. His overhead is safe as well though

You get 24-26% from a meterless safe overhead option?

 

[BigMilk]

You get 24-26% from a meterless safe overhead option?

No, that dmg is from committing. Safe option is less damage

 

[Nivek]

The pressure with TG are the run cancels and formthe other 2 variations are the plus on block strings.

 

[DDutchguy]

The pressure with TG are the run cancels and formthe other 2 variations are the plus on block strings.

Which canceled strings are +? I know B11 and F24, any others?

 

[Nivek]

Which canceled strings are +? I know B11 and F24, any others?

11 is plus also

 

[BlackJackSnack]

Yeah run cancels all day, my only problem is I feel like if I do RC pressure all the time I don't have enough stamina to do LBC's if I get them in a 5050 right after the pressure.

I'm a big fan of f12b2 into df2, on block it's not bad but I follow up with meter burn db3 immediately after they block shocker, this will (a decent amount of times) stop ppl from punishing you and you can get 24% (db3, b14 LBC 214 bf3) with corner carry even if they poke since db3 hits mid.

Only problem is MB db3 is super punishable if they block the first hit, so you can't rely on that working all the time. The good thing is you might condition them to respecting shocker on block in fear they might get hit with a MB db3

 

[buyacushun]

The pressure with TG are the run cancels and formthe other 2 variations are the plus on block strings.

How do you pressure with Displacer or MoS using the plus strings? I get using Teleport and Ex teleport after F2 and F2,2+4. But is that it? Have any tricks using 112?

 

[DDutchguy]

How do you pressure with Displacer or MoS using the plus strings? I get using Teleport and Ex teleport after F2 and F2,2+4. But is that it? Have any tricks using 112?

Teleport sorta keeps the properties of whatever string you're canceling it into. You could do F22+4, teleport, then B11 (6-frame gap between the two), far teleport. Builds 6/16th of a bar on block.

 

[Wetdoba]

Teleprt is all mind games. When it comes to F12B2 gap you can do something like F12B2xxEX tele as a psuedo option select if you arent sure if they will respect the gap or armor through. If they armor EXtele will absorb and punish, if they dont armor you will be plus

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

Teleprt is all mind games. When it comes to F12B2 gap you can do something like F12B2xxEX tele as a psuedo option select if you arent sure if they will respect the gap or armor through. If they armor EXtele will absorb and punish, if they dont armor you will be plus

this only works on 10 frame or slower armored moves, just a fyi to anybody that doesnt know

 

[buyacushun]

this only works on 10 frame or slower armored moves, just a fyi to anybody that doesnt know

Just realized this.