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Looking for fellow Manta scientists

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
As some of you may know, I've been working on a Black Manta living guide that I intend to be pretty extensive. I'm looking to start collaborating on this guy with others who feel like they can help flesh out the character tech and MU wise. You will be credited in the guide for doing this. If you're interested, reach out to me.

Wishlist for the living guide

> Flight cancel pressure data
> Missile pressure data
> Applications of S2 on oki
> Optimal/practical corner conversions and BnB's that are worth the effort
> IA BF2 applications
> Fleshing out @scarsunseen's meaty grounded missile tech found here (https://testyourmight.com/threads/grounded-meaty-db2-oki-does-combo.65665/) < Edit: This is not real tech. RIP.
> Get started on establishing our MU charts with whys and hows. Thinking of living MU guides like the Cyborg community has done.
 
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Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
As some of you may know, I've been working on a Black Manta living guide that I intend to be pretty extensive. I'm looking to start collaborating on this guy with others who feel like they can help flesh out the character tech and MU wise. You will be credited in the guide for doing this. If you're interested, reach out to me.

Things I would like to be proven wrong about...

> Flight cancel pressure being garbo
> Missile pressure being garbo
> 2 and all of it's strings being awful except as part of a combo.
b2 cancels in the corner are pretty decent, between b2 missile, b2 flight, and b22, 3 different options off of 1 normal, and at max distance can't really be counter poked.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
b2 cancels in the corner are pretty decent, between b2 missile, b2 flight, and b22, 3 different options off of 1 normal, and at max distance can't really be counter poked.
What's in your opinion in the incentive to do this instead of just spaced 3~laser pressure and general anything into MB laser block strings into frame trapping?
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I don't know if you can "pressure" with his flight, but I do think it's a pretty darn good tool to throw off typical counter hit scenarios and also enforce a good keepout game with instant flight 3 as a placed move since you can move forward or backward while doing it and landing from it doesn't have nearly the recovery of a whiffed jump attack.
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Things I would like to be proven wrong about...

> Flight cancel pressure being garbo
I know f2,1xx4 isn't that great, but isn't f2xx4 pretty quick? And isn't it still a pretty viable option to condition people with beams or the overhead ender of f2,1,3 and mix up with trait cancels? Or am I just being stupid when I do that?

It doesn't catch *everyone* but I feel like it's okay.
 
21 is better for oki if you don't walk up to your grounded opponent. Found much more success throwing it out against characters like Red Hood from range of combos ended in jdb3.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I know f2,1xx4 isn't that great, but isn't f2xx4 pretty quick? And isn't it still a pretty viable option to condition people with beams or the overhead ender of f2,1,3 and mix up with trait cancels? Or am I just being stupid when I do that?

It doesn't catch *everyone* but I feel like it's okay.
All I've found so far is j3~4, j3 jails and b2~4, j3 jails.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Just as an example of 213 on wakeup:


This setup can lose to a wakeup attack that is ultra delayed, but the timing is hard and I feel that having them even have to attempt that in the first place can be good. Conditioning is the name of the game, and I think once you show certain characters that they aren't going to be waking up so easily you can go for the b2 or jetpack type oki other than this pretty straightforward one.

You should be able to replicate this type of oki, btw, off of Shark Attack and Air Harpoon enders, but you will probably not catch backdash as often. Also char specific: Starfire, clearly, can't do much, but someone like Braniac will have an easier time using his shoulder to beat it while having a worse backdash.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
@Chernyy Volk

IDK if this counts as an example of "pressure" with trait, since I'm basically using the same cancel type over and over again, but here's me using some trait cancel pressure to success.

This isn't the highest level of play, but my training partner does know a bit about Manta and tries to interrupt and still gets hit. I think it's just a matter of using spacing tricks and saying fuck frame disadvantage more than anything.

 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Instant air BF2 comes out faster* as I'm sure you guys know but one practical usage of it is against Brainiac's B1~Trait and B12~Trait pressure. At any longer range(where Brainiac will want to actually use that stuff) the trait will end up hitting you if you reversal Shark Attack but not if you instant air Shark Attack. You could grapple or eye beam at certain ranges to punish but not at all ranges so IA-Shark Attack is more reliable.

In general it allows you to check the opponent with a fast attack from range and if they duck you go over them and could end up being "safe" anyway due to how random it is and how far you travel. I like to do it sometimes if I think the opponent will jump, and you could probably just react to some if not all jump arcs for a ranged punish. It's one of those moves like Raiden's Superman where it's really bad on block but if you land it at the right times you can mess with the opponent's head. It can also help you get in in certain MU's and has some general uses as a mobility tool.
 
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Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
What's in your opinion in the incentive to do this instead of just spaced 3~laser pressure and general anything into MB laser block strings into frame trapping?
you lost me with mb laser into frame traps, how does that work? its negative on block.

and the main reason to do it is that it keep's you from being too repetitive and predictable.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
you lost me with mb laser into frame traps, how does that work? its negative on block.

and the main reason to do it is that it keep's you from being too repetitive and predictable.
The pushback causes you to whiff punish any attempts at a button that's faster on paper. The super OD footsie buttons in this game don't reach.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
The pushback causes you to whiff punish any attempts at a button that's faster on paper. The super OD footsie buttons in this game don't reach.

i guess, not technically a frame trap tho, but yeah the push back sets up a good whiff punish game. tho does doing the rays from max distance make that much of a difference?
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
i guess, not technically a frame trap tho, but yeah the push back sets up a good whiff punish game. tho does doing the rays from max distance make that much of a difference?
It makes a huge different against characters like Superman where the spacing is deceptive and they still think they can f2 you only to get smacked in the face.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
@Chernyy Volk

IDK if this counts as an example of "pressure" with trait, since I'm basically using the same cancel type over and over again, but here's me using some trait cancel pressure to success.

This isn't the highest level of play, but my training partner does know a bit about Manta and tries to interrupt and still gets hit. I think it's just a matter of using spacing tricks and saying fuck frame disadvantage more than anything.

b2~4 pressure is 100% real. It's something nuts like +20 on block. If you do b2~4~j3 as tight as possible the opponent cannot d2, backdash, jump, anything.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
It makes a huge different against characters like Superman where the spacing is deceptive and they still think they can f2 you only to get smacked in the face.
so does f21~mb rays put you at the perfect distance against superman, or does it have to be raw from max distance or do it off 3, or b2?
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
so does f21~mb rays put you at the perfect distance against superman, or does it have to be raw from max distance or do it off 3, or b2?
I'll have to test this. I don't do a lot of f21 into rays. I do 123 and 2d3 a lot because they assist in the pushback a good deal.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I tested B2-4-J3 against Flash and he reversal'd me every time in practice mode.
I was about to get back about this. Yeah, it's a bill. They still have to be looking for it and I don't think it's useless. 12~4 cancels are better since you're doing it off plus frames.