Match-Up Discussion - Liu Kang Liu Kang vs A-List cage

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

What do you guys think about Liu Kang vs A-List cage?
Which variation of Kang is the best vs A-List?

Dualist vs A-List = 3-7?
Dragon's Fire vs A-List = 4-6?
Flame Fist vs A-List = 5-5?

How to play that matchup?


@Kickbykick @cR Xarakamaka @SylverRye @FOREVER EL1TE @Derptile @just_2swift @GreatKungLao @Parasurama @xXxNasHxXx @AK L0rdoftheFLY @Phosferrax
@Orangutan @EMPR_MURK
@NaCl man @PapaRegadetho @the.hamburglar

 

[Scott The Scot]

@Wigy
@Orangutan

 

[llabslb]

Kangs lack of a decent poke really shows itself in match ups like this.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

What is MKX?

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Dualist to a list is 4-6 nowhere near 3-7
Dragons fire and FF go evenly

 

[Scott The Scot]

What is MKX?

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Dualist to a list is 4-6 nowhere near 3-7
Dragons fire and FF go evenly

Can you elaborate it?

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Like most matchups in MKX it just depends on who gets their offense going first. Cage might have a bit better pressure but liu has better zoning and a parry that can easily cause a shift of momentum. I'd go with Flame Fist cause that's the only variation I play lol. It's really even IMO. Matchup is really read based though.

 

[Perdition]

Kangs lack of a decent poke really shows itself in match ups like this.

This is why I feel like none of Liu Kangs variations are even matchups with A List. I am not saying Cage is significantly better, but that alone gives him an undeniable edge over Liu.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Can you elaborate it?

They really go even with each other. Liu can keep JC out easier than JC can keep liu out. But JC can get out of pressure easier than lk can get out of pressure.

Dragons fire can zone/space out JC and go toe-toe with him up close. As long as he stays out of f3 range he isn't in any trouble. Upclose liu can break JC armor really easily while JC will be getting his damage mainly from his mixup from 113 and 11xxF2

Flame fist can keep a list out easier with better fireballs and a parry. Tools wise FF is the best variation against a list.

Dualist can't keep JC out as easy as the other two. Which is why it's 4-6. But upclose it's still 5-5.

 

[NaCl man]

Flame fist can keep a list out easier with better fireballs and a parry. Tools wise FF is the best variation against a list.

^ this exactly. This is a match up where spacing is very important. Alist has alot of ways to get in but ff has just as many ways to keep him out. Even match up in my opinion.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

They really go even with each other. Liu can keep JC out easier than JC can keep liu out. But JC can get out of pressure easier than lk can get out of pressure.

Dragons fire can zone/space out JC and go toe-toe with him up close. As long as he stays out of f3 range he isn't in any trouble. Upclose liu can break JC armor really easily while JC will be getting his damage mainly from his mixup from 113 and 11xxF2

True, but also A-List can break all Kang's armors very easily (F3 into 1,2).

Flame fist can keep a list out easier with better fireballs and a parry. Tools wise FF is the best variation against a list.

True. Flame Fist's regular and EX fireball does not avoid on Johnny Cage when he is crouching blocking

Dualist can't keep JC out as easy as the other two.

I don't know about that... Dualist's zoning is not as good as DF and FF...

 

[Wigy]

Zone them to fuck with liu. Jc has to creep his way in and u cant really punish low fireballs on read with a JIP cause jc's are so garbage.

Once jc gets in he can do work, not so much vs flamefist cause wmp and that stupid ass guessing game after.

Jc can get all his knockdown runs ins checked with low fireballs annoyingly and lius awesome walkback speed makes whiff punishing jc's shit very feasible.

On FF he can wake up pretty free cause you wont try armour break db2 cause of the risk of wmp so he can basically stand and do what he wants unless you manage a crossover which is only guna happen in the corner.

I struggle worse vs against FF than anyone except mileena. Hes in control everywhere except sweep distance.


If you're psn @Orangutan can help. Hes solid on this MU

P.S parry is a fucking paaaaain in the ass to whiff punish. Its a super lame game for jc vs FF.

 

[evolution07]

I've been using flame fist a lot recently within the last month or so. It's a very simple and fun variation with some very easy upsets when used properly.

I found against Cage, FF does well. Johnny has to play Liu's game and Liu can keep him out easily with zoning. Liu can parry or armor between Johnny's 113, his F3 or after a WP, but if the Johnny player suspects a parry is coming after a WP he can poke and get pressure started.

Liu has good pressure and his pokes have decent range but they're horrible. That's the only thing I dislike about Liu.

I'd agree that the matchup is 5-5, but I'd say that for all variations of Johnny unless someone can say why it would be different.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Zone them to fuck with liu. Jc has to creep his way in and u cant really punish low fireballs on read with a JIP cause jc's are so garbage.

Once jc gets in he can do work, not so much vs flamefist cause wmp and that stupid ass guessing game after.

Jc can get all his knockdown runs ins checked with low fireballs annoyingly and lius awesome walkback speed makes whiff punishing jc's shit very feasible.

On FF he can wake up pretty free cause you wont try armour break db2 cause of the risk of wmp so he can basically stand and do what he wants unless you manage a crossover which is only guna happen in the corner.

I struggle worse vs against FF than anyone except mileena. Hes in control everywhere except sweep distance.


If you're psn @Orangutan can help. Hes solid on this MU

P.S parry is a fucking paaaaain in the ass to whiff punish. Its a super lame game for jc vs FF.

I've been using flame fist a lot recently within the last month or so. It's a very simple and fun variation with some very easy upsets when used properly.

I found against Cage, FF does well. Johnny has to play Liu's game and Liu can keep him out easily with zoning. Liu can parry or armor between Johnny's 113, his F3 or after a WP, but if the Johnny player suspects a parry is coming after a WP he can poke and get pressure started.

Liu has good pressure and his pokes have decent range but they're horrible. That's the only thing I dislike about Liu.

I'd agree that the matchup is 5-5, but I'd say that for all variations of Johnny unless someone can say why it would be different.

Thx for the replies... interesting... I was reading Johnny's forum and I just read this:

Cage beat all options of liu's armors, and liu's zooning can't beat cage.. Is this because of his armor breaker?and true blockstrings?

All right. I get your point. That makes sense.. I'll watch out for that..
But I really think this is 6-4 in cage's favor, about the zooning, I think that in the worst case scenario we will eat 10% chip damage until reach him.. When in close combat, liu options are very bad against cage.. f3 into 12 beats his armors and pokes if you want, and also it's true blockstring if you want, d4 beating all his armors, and you have to outfootsie him against his d3, that has a very slow recovery

Most Johnny Cage players thinks that Flame Fist wins against A-List, but KillerXinok thinks that Johnny wins that matchup... weird

 

[evolution07]

Well, I did try using FF against Michael Angelos stunt double yesterday and it was a bit difficult, but, then again, it is Mike lol

 

[tafka Djinn]

Thx for the replies... interesting... I was reading
Most Johnny Cage players thinks that Flame Fist wins against A-List, but KillerXinok thinks that Johnny wins that matchup... weird

Every time I ran into the A-List MU, I felt like it was just even across the board as Liu Kang. Maybe a 4-6 for Dualist, but I wasn't ever really comfortable in that variation. I feel like either Xinok is oversimplifying it, or I'm somehow ovecomplicating it in my head.

 

[Wigy]

Thx for the replies... interesting... I was reading Johnny's forum and I just read this:





Most Johnny Cage players thinks that Flame Fist wins against A-List, but KillerXinok thinks that Johnny wins that matchup... weird

D4 gets blown up by wmp on wakeup and he has an unreactable 50/50 if he chooses to run in, so he can effectly zone you out all game if he makes the right reads.

If you want to do a cancel into f24 and arent unhumanly perfect WMP will blow you up. Basically limiting your cancel pressure a lot. Duno if he hasnt played a good flame fist or something?

By any respect. Its much more of a grind for jc to play, take execution and hard reads out of the equation and its a 5-5 maaaybe. Otherwise its in lius favour IMO

 

[Wigy]

Well, I did try using FF against Michael Angelos stunt double yesterday and it was a bit difficult, but, then again, it is Mike lol

SD looses clones on a parry which is pretty annoying. Though threat of clone shadow kick is nice.

 

[evolution07]

SD looses clones on a parry which is pretty annoying. Though threat of clone shadow kick is nice.

I figure stunt double is favorable to Johnny since he can keep Liu out by making the right reads. I didn't know he loses a clone by being parried; that's nice to know. I just hate how the ex clone is listed as a high when it's a mid.

 

[just_2swift]

Dam this is gold.

 

[llabslb]

If you're Kang your goal is to stay out of his footsies range. Zone as much as you can until he starts respecting you once he's at your B2/F44 range. If you have your spacing and conditioning right you can get your pressure going at this point.

It's funny because A-List has great counter zoning so Kang can't exactly zone forever. You'll end up taking trades here and there. Once he's in it's pretty much party time for A-List. Not only will you be pressured you'll constantly be getting checked by his D4/D3 which Kang can't do much about at a given range. With close range pokes it's best to counter poke with D1 or if you make a semi-read counter him with B12.

Even if Liu Kang had a faster poke I'd say Kang would still lose this tbh.

 

[llabslb]

Zone them to fuck with liu. Jc has to creep his way in and u cant really punish low fireballs on read with a JIP cause jc's are so garbage.

Once jc gets in he can do work, not so much vs flamefist cause wmp and that stupid ass guessing game after.

Jc can get all his knockdown runs ins checked with low fireballs annoyingly and lius awesome walkback speed makes whiff punishing jc's shit very feasible.

On FF he can wake up pretty free cause you wont try armour break db2 cause of the risk of wmp so he can basically stand and do what he wants unless you manage a crossover which is only guna happen in the corner.

I struggle worse vs against FF than anyone except mileena. Hes in control everywhere except sweep distance.


If you're psn @Orangutan can help. Hes solid on this MU

P.S parry is a fucking paaaaain in the ass to whiff punish. Its a super lame game for jc vs FF.

Johnny doesn't get checked by low fireball after a knockdowns and even if he does its possibly the riskiest thing ever.

 

[NickDaGreek1983]

Μan, talk about the PERFECT gif for the situation !!!

 

[PapaRegadetho]

Flame Fist is the best choice against A-list. Due to the simple fact that he has better wake up options. Dragon's Fire will have a hard time waking up, Johhny's d4 low profiles his best armor and he gets a free punish everytime. FF should go evenly against A-list, prepatch it was a winning MU, the last hit of Wps whiffed everytime, thus creating plus frames, enough plus to loop it all day. I tend to zone him more often and d3 it the right spot to bait, low profile his projectiles and his ex shadow kick, or parry his f3 if a read it correctly.