Match-up Discussion Liu Kang V Kenshi

[GGA Saucy Jack]

I am bad at this matchup. Very, very bad. I assume others struggle with it because its tough for kang, but im hoping we can put our heads together and find answers.

The only tricks i have come up with that help are:

1) dont always dash in through the zoning. I like to hang out and try to bait shoulders so i can fireball from just outside shoulder range. Doesnt work for long, but it tends to get me one good fireball to the face. Once the overhead slashes come its time to vacate.

2) general strat for all characters. Jump a shoulder. Not grounbreaking i know.

3) bait ex shoulder. When you get to that sweet spot where you know you will clear RK, kenshis like to exshoulder you out. I try to jump at them, and fireball so the shoulder goes under me and they waste a bar.

Thats it. Thats all i can come up with to fight this dragon pants wearing Scumbag. I know its thin. Thats why i struggle so much. So...thoughts to help fix this matchup that feels easily like a 3-7 to me?

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Well then. Three weeks...no input. Apparently we all like the blind man beating us down. Fine. This will just be my personal diary and if others read it, so be it.

Something ive been messing with lately (variable success), is playing like im cage. I try to just chip him and keep pressure with string staggers. I dont throw. I dont complete F121. Anything to keep him glued to me. I actively try not to launch him so i can take my damage in chip and stuffing his moves. As we get closer to the corner, i will allow myself to try to launch more since ill still be close.

Essentially, i am constantly giving up damage to stay up close, limit his meter build by making him block, and utilizing my far superior normals to 3-10 percent him to death, instead of getting a 37 percent combo, then getting straight up ass fucked on my way back in, wading through the murky waters of dashy men, punchy men, and overhead men.

Its a strategy in development, finding the right balance when to try to combo, and when to purposely not take the launch. But it has helped so far.

 

[BlackBryan]

To zone, and only if you must:

Iafb, low fb, iafb, high fb.

You have to be perfect, and you can't abuse it. You'll dodge reflects and land at least one fb......usually.

Basically you have to out play the kenshi. It's you're only shot.

 

[UPR_Nova]

Basically you have to out play the kenshi. It's you're only shot.

Well put.

I play both Liu Kang and Johnny Cage and I feel more comfortable against Kenshi with JC. Frametrap that big ass hitbox. Honestly, the only thing to do is (as ImNewbieSauce has already stated) keep him glued to you. Not converting full combos is very risky, but it is a solid idea IMO for a couple of reasons:

1.) You build meter as you chip him out.
Meter is very important in this matchup for the EX Low Fireballs. Once you get in, well placed EX Low Fireballs will keep you in and lead to much more damage than just chipping Kenshi out. A great Kenshi (Pig of the Hut for instance) will know when to EX SC through the Liu Kang pressure. A good idea is to follow with a f3 or the b3 string. This will put Kenshi in a pseudo-50/50 mixup, allowing for more pressure and more hesitation on the Kenshi to throw the EX SC.

2.) Kenshi is a meter dependent character.
By staying in, YOU are on the offensive building meter (duh). You are also limiting Kenshi's ability to zone and build massive amounts of meter from the blocked specials. Great Kenshi's and even solid ones at best will want to get you off by using SC. No need to try to poke and risk getting countered. EX SC that bitch and get him full screen again. Kenshi will build that bar back super fast. Shut down Kenshi's meter build by staying in his face.

Kang can occasionally build meter with fireballs but its not happening in this mathup. Just be patient and get in. IMO, you are doing well if you are getting in without taking any damage. Yes, Kenshi may be building hella meter if you are blocking all of his stuff but I look at the matchup in a different way. KENSHI IS BUILDING HELLA METER REGARDLESS. Making him whiff 1 or 2 specials and taking over 20% damage while getting in does not give you any serious advantage when you DO get in. You just have to put in twice the work to get the life lead. Stay patient and wait on the opening (even if it looks and feels like there won't be one).

Also, occasionally mixing up your jump-ins with delayed air fireballs seems to work well within that "sweet spot", however, Kenshi can just wait on you to come down and SC you back to full screen. Risky tactic, but sometimes it might pay off depending on your opponent.

Black Bryan couldn't have said it better enough. Just gotta beat your opponent, nothing more, nothing less.

Here is some high level Kang vs Kenshi. XBlades did not do the best getting in and Pig made him pay, but look at that pressure when he does get in. That high hitbox pressure is nasty because the b3 launcher keeps Kenshi blocking low so the EX SC is just a tad bit slower coming out vs if Kenshi was standing. With that Kenshi hitbox, standing 2 opens up many more options for mixups. BTW, I'm not claiming that I could have done better or that I am better than XBlades, but it is obvious that he took too much damage getting in and his phenomenal pressure was negated by this. And for those of you that don't know, Pig is one hell of a player.

 

[UPR_Nova]

Apologies, forgot to mention the f1,2. End it with 1, use f1,2 EX Low Fireball or don't use it at all. F1,2 is the easiest to see and react to especially for characters with armor. Tougher to use against Kenshi, for me anyway.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I saw ATL Redd to this to Pig of the Hut at one BnB tourney:

Fireball... when he reflects it... low fireball and you will duck under the reflected fireball.

At the very least, I guess you're building meter.

 

[BlackBryan]

To zone, and only if you must:

Iafb, low fb, iafb, high fb.

You have to be perfect, and you can't abuse it. You'll dodge reflects and land at least one fb......usually.

Basically you have to out play the kenshi. It's you're only shot.

EDIT: When i say "Iafb, low fb, iafb, high fb" i don't solely mean that mixup.
Basically know what you just fireball'd and fireball a counter fireball to said fireball.

Less basically then i originally intended.

 

[UPR_Nova]

I saw ATL Redd to this to Pig of the Hut at one BnB tourney:

Fireball... when he reflects it... low fireball and you will duck under the reflected fireball.

At the very least, I guess you're building meter.

Definitely a good idea, just gotta make sure you are on time with the low because you will eat the overhead slash and trades are in Kenshi's favor. The only thing that I would be worried about is playing against an opponent that randomly reflected and refused to reflect every fireball. Playing against an opponent with this mindset would make the follow-up low fireball pretty risky because he may not reflect the first. If I were playing as Kenshi, I don't mind a trade or two.

I hate this damn matchup and I haven't even played it that much. Personally, when I see Kenshi I take Cage or my recent addition, Cyblax (picked him up just for the Kenshi matchup). Doesn't help that the characters I play at the highest level get blown up by Kenshi pretty much every time lol.

 

[BlackBryan]

Definitely a good idea, just gotta make sure you are on time with the low because you will eat the overhead slash and trades are in Kenshi's favor. The only thing that I would be worried about is playing against an opponent that randomly reflected and refused to reflect every fireball. Playing against an opponent with this mindset would make the follow-up low fireball pretty risky because he may not reflect the first. If I were playing as Kenshi, I don't mind a trade or two.

I hate this damn matchup and I haven't even played it that much. Personally, when I see Kenshi I take Cage or my recent addition, Cyblax (picked him up just for the Kenshi matchup). Doesn't help that the characters I play at the highest level get blown up by Kenshi pretty much every time lol.

Everytime i play kenshi i pick Kano. Every character i play is gonna have a sucky time and why not shoot for a super blow up if you're gonna blow someone up.

 

[UPR_Nova]

LMAO....DAMN STRAIGHT

I move for a new Liu Kang strategy against Kenshi:

Pick Kano
If lose, pick Sheeva
If win, drop controller and walk away causing forfeit. You have nothing else to prove.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Well if he doesn't reflect them he's gonna eat chip, giving you more meter for a ex dragon kick or ex bicycle kick to get in or he's gonna eat the fireball.

Be careful though b/c if you do it too fast... like I found out last night... the reflect glitch will happen and both fireballs will be reflected back at you. Wasn't expecting that lol

 

[UPR_Nova]

Well if he doesn't reflect them he's gonna eat chip, giving you more meter for a ex dragon kick or ex bicycle kick to get in or he's gonna eat the fireball.

Couldn't agree more. I'll take the chip all day.

Just for me and my personal comfort zone, I see the high into low as a less usable because of the risk/reward, however, it is viable. I think we need some of the better Kang's out there to weigh in. I like to give my knowledge, but due to my lack of wins and terrible tourney performances, my words don't carry the weight as much as others. Maybe Final Round can change that lol

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Glad to see some life here!

topper2ath - great breakdown and some really good stuff in there. Im also hoping (fingers triple crossed) that my FR showing will show something for Liu.

BlackBryan - ill have to try that on sunday in my casuals, see how it helps. Thanks for the tip.

I ran this match up more today and seemed to continued success with the chip theory. Im still light years from having it down, but it went much better.

Final side note, i was discussing this with GGA Jeremiah and GGA soonk today and we all came to the same conclusion. If Liu connects a F3, he is plus 7. Hypothetically this means Kenshi cant armor out of a standing 2 (8 frames) if the Liu player does it as soon as possible. Theoretical outcomes:

Kenshi tries any armor move that IS NOT shoulder - it doesnt even come out, blown up
Kenshi tries to ex Shoulder barge LATE - it doesnt come out
Kenshi tries to ex shoulder AS SOON AS MATHEMATICALLY POSSIBLE -he gets meter drained and blown up

Obviously there are factors, but its something to think about. Kenshi MUST D1 or D3 or else he is still in the pressure. Just something to think about.

Edit: my memory was bad, hes plus 8 not 7 so that actually eliminates the meter drain option. It still means kenshi must poke or eat more pressure. Maybe Somberness can clarify the hypothetical...

 

[UPR_Nova]

So.....

LAND THAT F3 AND...

BLOW

HIM

UP

still a bitch though lol

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Go watch Atl redd play this MU

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Go watch Atl redd play this MU

I assume he does good things?

 

[UPR_Nova]

I'm unable to find anything of ATL Redd at all. I've looked pretty hard (maybe in the wrong places). I'll give the forum another dig but I dunno. Couldn't find anything on the Tube either. I guess if anybody finds his stuff, post it here.

BTW ImNewbieSauce ...we definitely gotta get some games at FR. I feel like a Liu Kang mirror would be fun...never played one before.

 

[BlackBryan]

Kenshi tries any armor move that IS NOT shoulder - it doesnt even come out, blown up
Kenshi tries to ex Shoulder barge LATE - it doesnt come out
Kenshi tries to ex shoulder AS SOON AS MATHEMATICALLY POSSIBLE -he gets meter drained and blown up

Obviously there are factors, but its something to think about. Kenshi MUST D1 or D3 or else he is still in the pressure. Just something to think about.
.

Careful, that D1 or D3 can be linked to anything.

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

I'm unable to find anything of ATL Redd at all. I've looked pretty hard (maybe in the wrong places). I'll give the forum another dig but I dunno. Couldn't find anything on the Tube either. I guess if anybody finds his stuff, post it here.

BTW ImNewbieSauce ...we definitely gotta get some games at FR. I feel like a Liu Kang mirror would be fun...never played one before.

Ill look for atl redd here in a bit, see if i can turn anything up.

And yes, lets get some Liu mirrors in at FR. Always fun.

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Careful, that D1 or D3 can be linked to anything.

They can indeed. But now we know what to scout. Anytime you limit someones options, it helps. Im not calling it a pure lock down strat, just more knowledge. The more you know...

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I'm unable to find anything of ATL Redd at all. I've looked pretty hard (maybe in the wrong places). I'll give the forum another dig but I dunno. Couldn't find anything on the Tube either. I guess if anybody finds his stuff, post it here.

BTW ImNewbieSauce ...we definitely gotta get some games at FR. I feel like a Liu Kang mirror would be fun...never played one before.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Eh, the first one I posted is really old. The other two are winner's finals and grand finals of a more recent tourney... in November.

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Thanks for posting those at STB Sgt Reed. I disagree with some of the things he was doing, but:
1) ive never played Pig Of The Hut
And
2) who the fuck am I? Lol.

But it was good to watch. Ill try to add some of that with my game, and see if i can make a kenshi killing blend.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Well, I highly doubt Pig plays like that anymore... but that's how Redd played it then.

 

[Squeaker101]

This is Liu's worst MU, it's f8cked up lol.

What I like to do is alternate between high and low, though once your opponent catches on it becomes pretty useless. If you watched XBlades vs Pig @EVO, he would delay his jump by doing airfireballs, which works somewhat well, but jumping is pretty risky in the first place.

Once you do get in (if) , I'd personally try get him to break first, as stated above, Kenshi is very meter dependent. Abuse the sh8t out of 2, even when his duck blocking it hits. Using b31 works pretty good to, it's onlt -1, and can confuse your opponent when they don't see the whole string,(I've also had people block high after b31, probably due to tendencies) Try using under used strings as well, such as f4, b2b3, f24 etc. You can cancel into EX Lowfireball after all these strings.
He really does need to rely on chip and unpredictable pressure. He just doesn't have the frame traps like JC.