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Question - Drunken Master Let's talk about Drunken Master

myri

Time Warrior
So what’s up guys, your resident Bo’ Rai Cho professor here again and I wanted to bring up a topic to discuss today because it’s one of the few things I hope gets some changes if there is in fact any more patches coming for MKXL. This will be a long post so be warned. Basically I want to talk about Bo’ Rai Cho’s Drunken Master variation and how it could be changed, overhauled or completely redesigned to be somewhat decent at least. There aren’t many variations in this game which are truly bad but this is one of them. The whole problem with this variation that I’ve found over the time that I’ve played it hinges on two very important problems.

Number one; getting drunk in the neutral safely and number two; being able to make use of your ten seconds after you do get drunk. Basically the entire design of this variation is based around taking a huge risk, to get access to some decent specials, all the while incurring an even bigger risk due to the ten second timer. Drunken Master has been this way since its release with the only notable change being the addition of a second hit of armour to his db1, which he needs to be drunk to do in the first place.

(I’m not even joking; the only other changes were to his b3 command grab hitbox and altering his drink input so it doesn’t dispel full screen effects like nimble Reptile’s ability and Jason’s red screen, that’s literally all the other changes this variation has received.)

Despite this, Bo in general received a good number of buffs, all of which are satisfactory in my opinion.

(Only other two I could really hope for are s1 reduced to 9 frames instead of 11 and f2 being a universal mid so that bartitsu has one as well. He doesn’t really need them though; they would be quality of life buffs.)

My problems and I’m sure everyone else who plays this variations problems are due to the variation specific mechanics themselves, so don’t worry about me crying for more buffs to Bo, he’s fine as is, it’s just the variation specific stuff that is getting us down. The biggest issue is the ten second time limit we set on ourselves to access this variation’s tool set, the risk vs reward is pretty skewed against Bo because of this, so I’d like to discuss a couple of different ways to alter this variation to make it more user friendly, while also keeping it fair.

Idea 1: No timer for being drunk, drunk level resets to zero on hit.

So first off, the drink remains a three level system, same moves, same frame data everything, except we now have unlimited time in our drunk state as long as we don’t get hit by our enemy. As someone who uses this character to a high level, it’s very hard to apply a LOT of Bo’s setups and set play in the corner when I constantly need to adjust myself to when I last drank. The majority of Bo’s setups in the corner don’t actually work because the drink as he either needs a drink beforehand, which usually means a previous combo in his corner set play or he hasn’t got a level in drink which prevents him from using his launching abilities from the Drunken Master stance.

However this change would allow Bo to access his full arsenal of corner set play in the corner without being hampered by the drink, as long as he manages to keep hitting his opponent without getting hit himself. It would still be risky to try and drink in the neutral and still very unsafe to drink on a string on block, but it would allow Bo to get his momentum going once he does get that initial touch.

What this also means is that Bo can opt to stay at a specific level of being drunk. Let’s say for instance I want access to df1, which requires level two drink, but I also want his normal df2, which leaves his opponent standing at level one and two, but at level three changes to knock the opponent down. With this I could opt to stay at level two as I don’t need to drink since there is no timer, which allows me a greater choice of options. I’m open to suggestions to possibly add downsides to this change as well if you feel it is too much, like I said I want to keep this variation fair while making it more accessible.

Also just from a straight up character stand point Bo is supposed to be THE DRUNKEN MASTER, he should be able to hold his drink for more than ten seconds at a time, I mean he invented the fighting style supposedly in the MK storyline right?

Idea 2: Drastically increase the opportunity to drink and lower the risk of drinking, while keeping the timer.

What this would involve is streamlining the drinking system to allow Bo an easier time to both get drunk and stay drunk without risking as much. Some examples of this would be allowing Bo to drink while in the stance, allowing him to immediately go into the stance after drinking by holding down after inputting the drink command, allowing him to cancel his command grab strings into drink, also holding down after doing a roll forward or back allows Bo to stay in the stance, while still only being able to roll twice before his stamina needs to recharge.

What this would also entail is a much faster recovery on the drink move itself, to allow Bo to get a drink in his neutral game and also so he can safely drink after a knockdown from his flips at all places on screen, which I think is a fair trade off, you sacrifice the chance for an OTG to get a drink in and also would really help to be less hampering to his set play. This is also probably the easiest and cheapest overhaul for NRS to do so it seems attractive just from that standpoint too.

Idea 3: Bo has access to his entire toolset without drinking and drinking only enhances his moves / Bo has access to the stance and everything out of the stance.

The main tool that Bo gets (in my opinion at least) in this variation is the stance and is basically the bread and butter of what this variation can do. Currently you can access the stance without drinking by using b4 and holding down but this makes it impractical for use in combos of course. A simple change would be to allow Bo to cancel into the stance without being drunk, so he is able to combo with his low launcher whenever he needs to. The low and mid launchers both remain unsafe so don’t worry.

Another version of this idea is to just give Bo all his moves at level zero drunk and have them be enhanced in same way, I’m really sure how, he isn’t really lacking in the damage department, maybe just only allowing certain moves at certain levels the same as now, df1 at level two and different versions of db1 and df2 at different levels.

Anyway, those are the three main concepts I wanted to share and discuss with you guys. If you guys have any other ideas or suggestions based on these existing ideas then feel free to talk about them. I know that the chances of another patch are slim to none but I’m just really passionate about this character (if it wasn't already obvious) and if there is any chance we can get this variation on par with the other two then I’d like to take it.

I’m going to tag anyone who I think may be relevant to this discussion. If anyone knows the tags for anyone at NRS could you drop them in here too, I’d really like to at least make them aware that this is one of the variation’s we would like to have them take another look at if they do end up doing another patch. Also tag any other Bo players who I've forgotten please.

@Thefish @Percimon @PND OmegaK @Marinjuana @FrankOceansWaifu @TamedLizard @Name v.5.0 @Youphemism @pretty flocko
 
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Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
The only other thing I thought of was having him spew on command and it being similar to Reptiles ex spit.

You'd still have to drink in the neutral, if you take one drink, at least, you should have access to a new move which causes him to vomit up the puddle but it remains onscreen and causes damage over time, if the opponent stands in it. Vomiting would take him back to level 0 drunk and the risk of drinking in the neutral.
 

myri

Time Warrior
The only other thing I thought of was having him spew on command and it being similar to Reptiles ex spit.

You'd still have to drink in the neutral, if you take one drink, at least, you should have access to a new move which causes him to vomit up the puddle but it remains onscreen and causes damage over time, if the opponent stands in it. Vomiting would take him back to level 0 drunk and the risk of drinking in the neutral.
This is an interesting idea actually, but it doesn't really solve the main issue with Drunken Master which is actually staying drunk after getting a touch, it also doesn't really help him smooth out his setplay and setups like I'm hoping. It's a cool idea though, it's funny to think about a puddle of vomit doing DoT.
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
This is an interesting idea actually, but it doesn't really solve the main issue with Drunken Master which is actually staying drunk after getting a touch, it also doesn't really help him smooth out his setplay and setups like I'm hoping. It's a cool idea though, it's funny to think about a puddle of vomit doing DoT.
The timer would need to go, for sure, I think it's a good idea as it puts the whole risk/reward scenario in your hands, at the very least.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
the thing i don't understand is what were they thinking when they made this character like legit think of all the self-buffs character's get in this game.
~predator: nasty hit or grab mix up were if they try to hit you and you block they're probably dead
~jason: gains health and meter or gains dmg buff and you can't armor
~kano: doing 50% and plus on block
~cage: gets plus frames free and a HTB
~kang: 10% fast ass fireballs
~reptile: safe launching meterless 50/50's or dmg over time
~subzero: gains an armored launcher and no chip

~ferro torr: plus frames and armor and 50% free
~quan chi: HTB or armor spell or meter drain
~kung jin: gains hella dmg or drains meter
~crystaline: gains psuedo armor

~jason infinite armor
of all these only the yellows/reds have any risk at all like AT ALL and you're telling me that these guys at netherreaalm thought damn daniel those are some mighty fly moves bo rai cho is getting on that buff. We really need to balance it out by making him sit there for a few seconds 10 secs after activation. Yup it's soooo good that we should give him a similar penalty to what we gave someone with INFINITE ARMOR bruh
 

honeybooboo

I speak truth, no lie
Loosing drunk on hit, would that apply if you armor out, say like df1 assuming it remains armored? In that case, BRC would be less "tanky"
Regardless, ive put some thought in DM changes aswell.
But its clear the timer needs to be change in some way.
15 seconds a drink and make it stack. Fair enough?
 

myri

Time Warrior
I would love to be able to make use of his rolls more often. Maybe after DD3 all his rolls don't use up any stamina, but rolls from B4 stay the same.
Yeah but then his movement becomes insane, those rolls are fast and have invincibility don't forget.

Loosing drunk on hit, would that apply if you armor out, say like df1 assuming it remains armored? In that case, BRC would be less "tanky"
Regardless, ive put some thought in DM changes aswell.
But its clear the timer needs to be change in some way.
15 seconds a drink and make it stack. Fair enough?
If you absorb a hit with armour I think the drink would probably not reset maybe? I'm not sure yet, need to think about it.
 

honeybooboo

I speak truth, no lie
What would be the implications if say, nrs sped up dd3xx2 and icreased its range? DM brc would have a go to punish/launcher with invincibility. Keep in mind, only accessable via drink and unsafe.
 

myri

Time Warrior
What would be the implications if say, nrs sped up dd3xx2 and icreased its range? DM brc would have a go to punish/launcher with invincibility. Keep in mind, only accessable via drink and unsafe.
I think the dd3 (2) is fine as is, if he gets an option to keep his drink until he's hit or just has access to at least the stance at level zero then he's fine to punish everything anyway.

The main issue like I keep saying is getting the drink and staying drunk, once those issues are resolved he's pretty much fine honestly.
 

FrankOceansWaifu

Watch this set up.
Yeah but then his movement becomes insane, those rolls are fast and have invincibility don't forget.
They sure do, and that'll be fine imo as he still has a limited amount of time before barfing. Even with the advanced mobility he'll still have to stop for a drink or attack the opponent and end in one. Doesn't seem like too much of an unreasonable buff.
 

Wigy

There it is...
None of his moves are incredible except level 3 df1 and torpedo.

No justification for having to drink and then the hangover.

The roll is good but you can bait it and all it does is stop them zoning and make him safe/confuse on block

You couldnt just rofl spam it if it was staminaless

Hangover needs to go, monkey flips should be drink cancelable. My main requests

(also universally sort f1 out and make his d1 +12ish so everyone isnt rofl poke spamming)
 
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myri

Time Warrior
Main thing like I keep saying is to just fix the drink mechanism, removing the timer/vomit effect is the simplest way of doing that. We can talk about his rolls or his drunk moves and stuff but none of it really matters until that key component of the variation is streamlined to make it actually usuable in the game.

Keep in mind that if you need to get in on someone zoning you that you will have to get a drink in at full screen to get access to ex bf3 which just lets someone hit you with a projectile for free or just try and do b4 into the rolls I suppose but once again your options are limited if you do get in since you don't have access to 90% of your moveset. In its current form you are at a disadvantage whether you are drunk or not, no moves or no very little time to use them before you stun yourself. Risk reward is so not in Bo's favour at any time while using this variation.
 

Percimon

Sky above, Voice within
As for me, it'll be enough if df2 will reset drunk level.

But I think that we'll receive absolutely nothing in future...
 

TotallyNotKotalKahn

Low Tier Addict
lets just make peace with the fact that its not going to be removed outright, with that said, here are my potential solutions for the hangover timer. On top of these suggestions, or any mix of these suggestions, sexypose should be grab and mid immune. He should only get hit if the hitbox collides.

1) Make hangover only happen on lvl3 drunk. This eliminates drinking as a barrier to the more essential moves (stance and headbut). Its still in theme because you only get hangovers from drinking too much.

2) make all forms of df2 hangover immune. If you hit hangover while executing df2 or ex df2 you simply lose your drunk level. (also lvl3 should destroy projectiles at the very least. Personally all ex versions should too). Also level 3 puke should have much shorter recovery.

3) hangover immune while in sexypose.

4) hangover only destroys 1 hit of armor. if I do an armored wakeup and only get hit by hangover it should continue if it has more than 1hit of armor. Simple and easy.

Generally this is what I would do if I were paolo. It eliminates alot of the limiting factors of the style while still being true to the soul of the style (in drunken master movies the practitioner usually takes penalties for drinking too much, meaning that they get too sloppy to fight proper). This also does very little to address what gives bo a hard time in the neutral(poor pokes) but just makes the character tournament viable.

Another suggestion was to have the timer stack instead of just refresh. I honestly really like that idea. That way when you are drinking like a madman trying to be patient on your way in, you will be building up for your agression later.

A 15 second timer instead of 10 is an ok idea but I dont think it really solves the problem.
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
lets just make peace with the fact that its not going to be removed outright, with that said, here are my potential solutions for the hangover timer. On top of these suggestions, or any mix of these suggestions, sexypose should be grab and mid immune. He should only get hit if the hitbox collides.

1) Make hangover only happen on lvl3 drunk. This eliminates drinking as a barrier to the more essential moves (stance and headbut). Its still in theme because you only get hangovers from drinking too much
This is the idea I like most. It's simple, would make him relatively viable and doesn't break him.
 

myri

Time Warrior
I mean, I do want changes to the drink mechanic itself but if the alternative is to at least have some control over the drunk state apart from just a ten second timer then I'll take that. I still believe a complete rework of the mechanic is needed but I'll take what I can get.

Two hits of armour on a move that requires a drink to use is the only change this variation has got since release and that is pretty much a throwaway considering it was a near universal change. NRS please take another look at this. Again if anyone knows the tags for anyone at NRS please drop them in here.
 

myri

Time Warrior
A cool idea I just had which is kind of unrelated is wouldn't it be cool if you could special cancel out of the rolls from the stance, i.e. dd3, 1 or 4 and then during recovery input a special and it comes out instead of the recovery frames. Then Bo could even cancel back into the stance!
 

myri

Time Warrior
Another idea I had which would be cool is if Bo could toss his flask and put some kind off debuff on his opponent when they are covered in alcohol or something. NRS PLEASE FIX DRUNKEN MASTER!