Kustom Variations and Tournaments

[Juggs]

A lot of people have been discussing kustom variations and their role in tournaments. There’s been so many negative “prophecies” that the kustom variations will cause a whole host of issues. And on the other hand, people have been praising the kustom variations and the system itself, saying how great it is and that it would be a shame for it to go to waste.

Before I actually played the game, I was definitely 100% against kustom variations for tournament play. For a lot of the same reasons the anti kustom zealots are. That it would take too much time, a lot of MU stuff to learn, etc etc.

After I’ve had so much time with the game, it would be an absolute disgrace for this beautiful and creative new mechanic in MK11 to not be used to its full potential. Although, I am a man of logic and reason. I understand where the zealots are coming from. The time issue is definitely a legitimate concern. Even though there’s no actual evidence that it will be a problem, I can see why they would be hesitant.

So, I propose a solution to our Masters of the NetherRealm themselves. If NRS can add the option, in tournament mode perhaps, to allow kustom variation move picking at the kharacter select screen, this will solve a lot of the issues people were having, or at least, the biggest issue.

If you watch any fighter that has options to choose from per characters, you’ll see managing it in the select screen is definitely the best option. In Marvel for instance, you are to choose 3 separate characters with 3 separate assists for each one. This was all done in the character select screen. In other fighters, much the same happens. You choose your super/ultra, etc.

Now, one question should come to mind. “Yes, that may be true, but the variation moves are a little different and more complex. How will this solve that issue”? That’s a good question. When you’re actually in the kustom variation menu picking your abilities, it’s rather quick from the time you enter it to the time you’re finished. If that amount of time is mirrored in the select screen version of itself, we will not have any issues as people have been proclaiming.

So, NRS, please listen to the community. Most people WANT Kustom Variations to be tournament legal. But as it stands, that may not be possible. Please give the kommunity what it needs, add an option in tournament mode to pick your variation moves in the kharacter select screen! If you want your players to actually use and benefit from this system you clearly worked hard on, well, we are going to need some assistance to make that idea a reality!

Let me know down below how you would solve this issue? What do you think of the proposed solution? Any comments or questions are welcome!

@16 Bit @tylerlansdown

 

[Evil Canadian]

You might as well have custom variations the net result is the same in the end. Everyone will gravitate towards the "best" layout. If there is just regular variations, everyone will gravitate towards the "best variation".

Considering the exact same net result, you just might as well allow it. Very few characters in any version of MKX actually had more than 1 variation played realistically, and thus it would be the same for custom variations, there would be the cookie cutter one everyone uses with the odd deviation.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

Will just regurgitate my posts from other threads with 2am effort.

"Takes too much time "
Let players slot their specials from the character select screen with a quick drop down menu like assists in Marvel 3. Would take less than 3 seconds for tournament players who've spent hundreds of hours on their "builds"


"Wont know opponent's specials"

Add the special move icons and names you see from the Kustomization to the Loading Screen before a match. Oh he has Misery Blade and Hell Breath? I know what to do. Load screen gives plenty of time to adjust and memorize if you didn't get enough time during char select.


"Would complicate matchups"

Suck it up. Adds longevity and creativity to the game. People love seeing weird Groove players in CvS2 and non-standard assists in Marvel. Makes for better spectacle, allows for more player Freedom

 

[CrimsonShadow]

In MKX we should have learned that most variations weren’t complicated separate from each other, balance-wise. Fixing or rebalance one variation can and did affect the others on multiple occasions. And that was with only three variations.

Custom variations introduces yet another level of issues. If it happens, it’s not going to be this panacea of equal options like people think it’ll be. And it’d be nearly impossible for the game to be balanced if most of the options are viable. Likely many options would have to suffer in order to keep characters in a certain place balance-wise.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Still too much things to balance and memorize. They got rid of the aplified buttons because it was too much to remember, think it’ll be the same case here. Labing one character will take more than usual ( I like that in a way)

 

[Juggs]

In MKX we should have learned that most variations weren’t complicated separate from each other, balance-wise. Fixing or rebalance one variation can and did affect the others on multiple occasions. And that was with only three variations.

Custom variations introduces yet another level of issues. If it happens, it’s not going to be this panacea of equal options like people think it’ll be. And it’d be nearly impossible for the game to be balanced if most of the options are viable. Likely many options would have to suffer in order to keep characters in a certain place balance-wise.

I think NRS knows what they’re doing and it will all be just fine. Again with these prophecies. Is it not a better idea to just try out this amazing and creative mechanic FIRST so we actually have evidence to back up our claims? Idk, maybe that makes a little too much sense.

 

[Tanno]

The answer lies to Skullgirls. They had a custom ability select to add certain specials and supers in their assist moves. You could select the custom ability select and select up to 3 abilities that are to your disposal as long as they're within the slots quantity.

I tried Scorpion and he had like only two base abilities, that made it quite boring. If you add the custom abilities of your liking, you could make this match quite interesting on its own.

 

[Crimson Panther]

I'm all for this. Wished it was a thing in Injustice 2.

 

[Lokheit]

Yeah that quick menu to tick on and off kustom moves is what us pro kustom variations have been proposing for ages.

The game already has a similar menu on character screen for advanced controls so it would be easy to implement.

I don't think anyone that has played the beta could argue how allowing them would be a bad thing, no move combination makes any character feel OP, on the contrary, some of them are bad and could even get buffed.

The game has a lot of counter measures already in if a move needs to be restringed:

- Number of slots it takes.

- Replacing a base move.

- Conflicting with another kustom move.

- Requiring another kustom move.

Basically they can neuter and control anything without destroying it with this many variables.

They've put a lot of work on making this balances, go for it NRS, make them tournament legal!

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

I'm not a fan of competitive kustom variations, I prefer when pro players have to perform within pre established rules by the developper. This is why I liked MKX's variations, they gave us more options to play a character but it was still within NRS's established rules. It's like "Take this and do your best with it". I know that the system isn't flawless, because there were several variations that remained useless from the beginning to the end of the game. I'm not a fan of "choose whatever you want" system at high level.

Custom variations will only result in the same meta loadout for each character anyways, and it will probably be way more difficult to balance than MKX variations.

I understand why people want kustom variations allowed in tournaments, but my personal preference goes to a fixed default variation system where the only thing you can change is the appareance of the character. I guess we could give the custom variation a try, but I think the default variation system should be the official standard.

And I love the "people against it are zealots". What a great argument

 

[Thingy]

I am on the fence about this, and it will be nice to read through this debate. OP has good ideas about how to impliment this though. Putting the custom set up in the select menu somehow could make it work. Especially if tournaments have a time limit for setting up a character.

 

[IceNine]

I'm not a fan of competitive kustom variations, I prefer when pro players have to perform within pre established rules by the developper. This is why I liked MKX's variations, they gave us more options to play a character but it was still within NRS's established rules. It's like "Take this and do your best with it". I know that the system isn't flawless, because there were several variations that remained useless from the beginning to the end of the game. I'm not a fan of "choose whatever you want" system at high level.

Hmm, I understand your perspective on this, but IMO, the kustom variation system as it exists now I feel is actually pretty restrictive. Lots of checks and balances in what you can and cannot add through conflicts, input overlap, and the entire point-based distribution of abilities based on perceived strength. It's a very curated system with plenty of guidance from the Hand of Boon and Co., with clearly some measure of balancing being attempted.

 

[Shark Tank]

I'm more concerned that we don't know the variations yet and they haven't given a solid answer about how they're going to do this. Games out in less than a month, this time in MKX we knew all this shit. Have they still not figured out the presets this far into development that they can't show us. That's kinda a scary prospect. Or do they just not want to tell us for some reason. Seems weird, everything on the kombat kast seems up in the air because bit is just making customs, not tourament/ranked mode variations.

 

[Mind Flex]

At first I was a naysayer. I assumed it wouldn't work. Thanks to the stress test, I have now seen the light and I fully support kustom variations in competitive.

 

[trufenix]

Can we please wait until we know the devs intentions before deciding yet again if a feature needs to be adjusted before anyone even plays the game?

 

[Bloodfang]

One other concern is IF you have preset variations, will one of those variations even ALLOW the character to play at desired competitive level?

Best example here is current build for Scorpion. Tech and kombos discovered for him throughout the two Betas have more or less determined that in order to play him at his best or simply even competitively viable you almost NEED to have Misery Blade for cancel safety/mixups AND Demon Dash for combo ender damage and it's utility. If NRS doesn't provide a tourney variation that has those two moves together, the Scorpion players will be at a HUGE disadvantage against charaters that have either a variation with their optimal loadout OR hell multiple viable loadouts, lol. Current Scorpion is seemingly stuck with only one VIABLE loadout with player skill determining if it is a solid one or not, lol.

 

[Afumba]

I honestly think they will allow it. They put alot of work into designing these moves and stuff... would be a total waste of time and resources otherwise. If they dont allow it... it would have been better if they didnt bother with it at all and instead used the time/resources to create a couple more characters/skins/stages.

 

[Tanno]

Can we please wait until we know the devs intentions before deciding yet again if a feature needs to be adjusted before anyone even plays the game?

It's been decided since INJ2, and this is why we're discussing about it for MK11. I have seen its recipe at INJ2, having some interesting moves that were actually what the base characters missed out. Doing the same moves makes it a bit predictable. Adding, IMO, more of those interesting moves makes the match more hype and interesting.

I say, we should add the kustom variations to add those moves we have never seen before to make it more interesting in depth. I like seeing something unique to them.

 

[trufenix]

It's been decided since INJ2, and this is why we're discussing about it for MK11. I have seen its recipe at INJ2, having some interesting moves that were actually what the base characters missed out. Doing the same moves makes it a bit predictable. Adding, IMO, more of those interesting moves makes the match more hype and interesting.

I say, we should add the kustom variations to add those moves we have never seen before to make it more interesting in depth. I like seeing something unique to them.

It has not been decided, we don't even know what competitive mode looks like in the game. We've gotten repeated requests from Boon and Kombat Last team that we need to wait. We don't even know if the game HAS a competitive mode like i2.

Y'all are just jumping the gun. Wait... It's gonna be like two weeks before someone posts the gold distro on Reddit and this thing blows open.

Thete is no point in yelling Nrs what we want competitively before we even know what there is.

 

[Kroaken]

100% down with this, Juggs. Here's hoping.

 

[theotherguy]

Isn't it up the community/TO's to decide on how it's played? NRS supplies the game but we play it.

Without knowing what they have planned, so long as NRS creates a foundation that makes it somewhat viable then there's no reason why Kustom variations can't be a thing. But there's nothing saying they have to make a tournament standard variation, because ultimately it's up to the TO's/players to decide if they want to use that.

If NRS doesn't provide a tourney variation that has those two moves together, the Scorpion players will be at a HUGE disadvantage against charaters that have either a variation with their optimal loadout OR hell multiple viable loadouts, lol. Current Scorpion is seemingly stuck with only one VIABLE loadout with player skill determining if it is a solid one or not, lol.

Yep, so really makes no difference to having set variations or kustom, as the most viable will be the one used. The benefit is for those that want to play with a non-optimal one.

There's definitely pro's and con's, but i'm erring on the side of standardised variations. Mostly for the "known" factor; but it would make it easier to balance the variation knowing that these X moves are in it, not X + Y or Z or B and T.

 

[Tony at Home]

Apart from the ergonomic changes at the character select screen it'd be helpful to also add some indication of what variations your opponent is using at the match loading screen.

It'd be super lame to have to guess what moves my opponent is capable of at round start in tournament. Especially since at character select I'm focusing on getting my own character set up, not theirs.

Design wise from NRS's perspective it's hard to guess their intent. I think even they're probably on the "let's see how things pan out first" side. But then again, looking at Kabal's ability set (and probably other characters, I'm just most familiar with Kabal at the moment) there's just a ton of moves that make absolutely no sense to use given an alternative. As in the only universe ability X makes sense to exist is when it's bundled together with ability Y in variation Z so you're forced to have that sort of "give and take", which partially leads me to believe NRS may prefer no-kustom variations as some balancing mechanic.

 

[stokedAF]

If misery blade is needed then just make it a base move across all variations.

 

[Circus]

No one is mentioning the most important part of all of this.

Sure, the best kustom loadout will end up being very popular.

1. But that same loadout will probably not be good vs that very strong zoning character.

2. Or that same loadout might not be good with Johnny Cage if he equips that certain move that causes complications.

The point is that kustom loadouts are the solution to MKX's problem where people would literally just switch characters to make matchups more favorable. In MK11 all you could do is change a few moves around and you could change a 7-3 into a 5-5.

The balancing "issue" is a non-statement too imo. Like people mentioned, in the long run there could be more checks and balances added to the moves conflicting with one another if anything becomes too powerful. Balance is always going to be an issue in any fighting game regardless of this or not.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I think NRS knows what they’re doing and it will all be just fine. Again with these prophecies. Is it not a better idea to just try out this amazing and creative mechanic FIRST so we actually have evidence to back up our claims? Idk, maybe that makes a little too much sense.

I think that if you just play online, it's really easy to say, "Yeah, f it, just go for it" -- but imo there's a lot more at stake when it comes to the tournament crowd, and we've already seen what can happen when it comes to being cavalier about this. I'd love for MK11 to be the first game in a while where there's not a 4-alarm fire for the entire first 3 months or whatever.