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Match-Up Discussion - Kitana Kitana MU Chart Created by xKhaoTikx & SonicFox

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Damn. Hitting myself again for not recording my matches with Bio. 3-2 his way. It started with Vicious I believe, however Mournful absolutely crushs his zone game. Forgo the use of grounded glaives nigh all together. You will crush any attempts at zoning and blind rushins. At max range you force F/T literally play your way. Chip chip chip chip confirm on airglaives and bait boss girl...victory.

Fucking Lackey comes around with rolls and charges. Didnt adapt in time..lose.

Assassin comes into play parries and patience. Win.

I believe boss girl returned afterward...it was horrible..boucing fans off little girls. Nightmares even..like..dude..and dont get me started on the d1 AA. Feelings...hurt.

Repeat Mournful...then Lackey. Obama out. Tears...Lab. Runback?
My apologies for your loss, but I couldn't help but lul a bit at your description.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Goro Versus Kitana. I won't be touching on Kuatan Warrior at all because I don't use it and cannot fathom it having a worthwhile place against any zoner worth mentioning. I'll mostly be talking about Dragon Fangs, but Tigrar Fury might get referenced too.

More or less, this is your traditional zoner versus rushdown affair. Goro wants to get in, Kitana wants to keep him out obviously, but let's talk about why it's a balanced match up beyond the superficial level.

Before I begin, let's make a core design point about Goro: He is built to be played primarily on the ground unlike a character Kitana beats like Sonya or Kung Lao where them not being able to jump hurts apart of their core design, Goro is meant to be played as a patient character on the ground.

Goro can punish fan toss on block with command grab for 16-20% damage off of pretty much any string, which means to stay safer she can spend a bar or avoid cancelling into fan toss on block up close at all, but then that means less chip damage for her in general, but it makes playing up close against him even more precarious.

Goro beats her out ranged wise due to forward 3 being faster than forward 2 with notably more range than forward 1 so in neutral scenarios he can pester her better. Up close, he has great frame traps to keep her on lock down. He has safe mix up options to keep her guessing and 3, down 3 breaks armor and is safe with launching capabilities/overhead, which compliments his low, stagger pressure, throws, ex low stab (+12 on block special). When he gets in, it can be daunting for her and it only takes one correct read to drag her to the corner where his offense just gets stronger and more potent. Compared to Kitana's stagger pressure and lack of a mix up game, most of the time she's not gonna wanna be playing that game. Goro's down 1 rivals Kitana's range, but is faster and safer on block. In fact, all of his low pokes are equal or better than hers, only down 3 has around equal merit.


Goro can move around like a normal character now so getting in on zoning is purely a matter of good fundamentals and patience. Kitana usually kills people who get sloppy or impatient, these are not character weaknesses, but a universal means by which Kitana acquires damage. She also has to be wary at certain ranges throwing fans since Goro can plow through it with armor for a full combo into great corner carry.

The only place she outclasses Goro is fullscreen and thank goodness she wins there because otherwise it would be a hard battle for her if she couldn't keep him at bay.

The oki game is interesting since Goro can always wake up safely and her wake ups are a risk. Against most characters, ex rising fans can plow through armor attacks, but outright gets crushed by ex punchwalk.


In regards to Assassin, even if she makes a read on Assassin parry against ex punch walk, she still gets punished because of the two hits of armor and her whiff recovery. Factor in his low starter and other counter options and parry becomes a read where the risk reward is outside of her favor, it definitely has defensive applications, but is not groundbreaking. A lot of royal storm's tools don't come into play against Dragon Fangs because there's nothing for Kitana to counter zone with reflect and what not and lacking a parry gives her reduced defensive options. Long ranged lift is useful of course as it is in any match up to check ducking.

There's more reasons why it should be even than not. She builds a lot of meter versus everyone and usually has more than most people, not a match up specific issue.
Kitana can be opened up regardless of being patient due to his mix ups whereas Goro only gets opened up due to sloppy play or overextending yourself.

I mostly talked about Dragon Fangs, but Tigrar Fury stuff applies for this as well really.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Before I begin, let's make a core design point about Goro: He is built to be played primarily on the ground unlike a character Kitana beats like Sonya or Kung Lao where them not being able to jump hurts apart of their core design
Just to add in, I think this is why Lackey does the best out of the three. The other two are semi-dependent on their massive n.j.p tool for spacing, but Lackey is 100% ground game with his only air move worth mentioning being an short hop 1 which comes out in like 5 frames or so.
 

Tweedy

Noob
I can't fathom Sonya vs Kitana being advantage Kitana. Maybe it's just another case of Kitana making a character play differently, like with Kung Lao?

In the case of Kung Lao, he doesn't let her do any float mind games or jump in, his D4 is great in the neutral vs her, he can corner carry her and bully her in the corner with one touch, etc. I've always thought that the match up was 5-5, even after the XL updates.

You just can't jump at all, like, ever. No matter how strong Sonya/Kung Lao are in the air. Kitana rules it. 5 frames jump in/IA fans/great anti airs and conversions, you guys already know. However, I still think that what Sonya can do once she lands, versus what Kitana is capable of once she lands, warrants it being a 5-5. I'm always down for Kung Lao downplay, so the 6-4 can stay. :p
 

SM StarGazer

The voice of reason in a Sea of Salt
How does Kenjutsu match Mournful. No teleport, no way to stop air glaives,duckable grab which can be baited and blown up with ExAirGlaive, Any whiffed or blocked unsafe special is leading to 35%+ with oki, d1, staff grab, and shadow kick out space b1, ExShadowKick wins all armor to armor on wakeup, and ain he has no easy way out of ExGlaive setups.

As for possessed...I do the same as Imposter...njp on reaction, lift on reaction, ExStaffGrab, shadow kick out or backdash it leading into ExGlaive. I don't see what you all see regarding those too. Even if Kitana doesnt throw a glaive she is still in control.

Also Kitana does very well against Shaolin. Mournful does well because she can avoid and counter chakrams, blow up dive kicks, and shadow kick under jumpins and even his NJP at times.

Me love Mournful...need that SaffGrab brutal tho.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
Goro can punish fan toss on block with command grab for 16-20% damage off of pretty much any string, which means to stay safer she can spend a bar or avoid cancelling into fan toss on block up close at all, but then that means less chip damage for her in general, but it makes playing up close against him even more precarious.
No, Kitana's fan can be -7 based on string and push block vs certain characters. From 212 her fan is -6 on block
 

Espio

Kokomo
No, Kitana's fan can be -7 based on string and push block vs certain characters. From 212 her fan is -6 on block
It's like you never read what people say and just reply.

Not to mention, she cannot backdash, jump or armor to escape command grab off of 2,1,2 fan so you are actually wrong,

You might wanna consider actually trying it before saying "no" when I'm actually correct.

It doesn't matter if she can do it versus other characters, I am talking about what happens to her versus Goro.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
I can't fathom Sonya vs Kitana being advantage Kitana. Maybe it's just another case of Kitana making a character play differently, like with Kung Lao?
Against Sonya there's a good way to abuse Demolition's weakness: if you unfortunately eat a Sonya's combo, break at the 3rd grenade, korean backdash and start spamming. Sonya is in some trouble then.
But I think the 5.5-4.5 is meant to be average matchup so Kitana might be even against Demolition and win other two
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
I kinda agree with Quan. Hard to say really. I think summoner is 5-5, sorcerer is 4-6, and warlock is 6-4 quans favour. At least against royal storm and assassin. Mournful I'm not 100% yet. But I'm cool with the overall numbers therefore making it official
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
@Lokheit thoughts on Cryomancer vs Mournful? Iv only played a good Mournful once and it was months ago. It felt pretty 5-5 then and the characters are virtually unchanged since.
 
Goro Versus Kitana. I won't be touching on Kuatan Warrior at all because I don't use it and cannot fathom it having a worthwhile place against any zoner worth mentioning. I'll mostly be talking about Dragon Fangs, but Tigrar Fury might get referenced too.

More or less, this is your traditional zoner versus rushdown affair. Goro wants to get in, Kitana wants to keep him out obviously, but let's talk about why it's a balanced match up beyond the superficial level.

Before I begin, let's make a core design point about Goro: He is built to be played primarily on the ground unlike a character Kitana beats like Sonya or Kung Lao where them not being able to jump hurts apart of their core design, Goro is meant to be played as a patient character on the ground.

Goro can punish fan toss on block with command grab for 16-20% damage off of pretty much any string, which means to stay safer she can spend a bar or avoid cancelling into fan toss on block up close at all, but then that means less chip damage for her in general, but it makes playing up close against him even more precarious.

Goro beats her out ranged wise due to forward 3 being faster than forward 2 with notably more range than forward 1 so in neutral scenarios he can pester her better. Up close, he has great frame traps to keep her on lock down. He has safe mix up options to keep her guessing and 3, down 3 breaks armor and is safe with launching capabilities/overhead, which compliments his low, stagger pressure, throws, ex low stab (+12 on block special). When he gets in, it can be daunting for her and it only takes one correct read to drag her to the corner where his offense just gets stronger and more potent. Compared to Kitana's stagger pressure and lack of a mix up game, most of the time she's not gonna wanna be playing that game. Goro's down 1 rivals Kitana's range, but is faster and safer on block. In fact, all of his low pokes are equal or better than hers, only down 3 has around equal merit.


Goro can move around like a normal character now so getting in on zoning is purely a matter of good fundamentals and patience. Kitana usually kills people who get sloppy or impatient, these are not character weaknesses, but a universal means by which Kitana acquires damage. She also has to be wary at certain ranges throwing fans since Goro can plow through it with armor for a full combo into great corner carry.

The only place she outclasses Goro is fullscreen and thank goodness she wins there because otherwise it would be a hard battle for her if she couldn't keep him at bay.

The oki game is interesting since Goro can always wake up safely and her wake ups are a risk. Against most characters, ex rising fans can plow through armor attacks, but outright gets crushed by ex punchwalk.


In regards to Assassin, even if she makes a read on Assassin parry against ex punch walk, she still gets punished because of the two hits of armor and her whiff recovery. Factor in his low starter and other counter options and parry becomes a read where the risk reward is outside of her favor, it definitely has defensive applications, but is not groundbreaking. A lot of royal storm's tools don't come into play against Dragon Fangs because there's nothing for Kitana to counter zone with reflect and what not and lacking a parry gives her reduced defensive options. Long ranged lift is useful of course as it is in any match up to check ducking.

There's more reasons why it should be even than not. She builds a lot of meter versus everyone and usually has more than most people, not a match up specific issue.
Kitana can be opened up regardless of being patient due to his mix ups whereas Goro only gets opened up due to sloppy play or overextending yourself.

I mostly talked about Dragon Fangs, but Tigrar Fury stuff applies for this as well really.
ANNND the Parry glitch is still there, I put it out before KP2 and they didnt fix it :( her parry is the only parry that doest work vs hes EX punch walk... what a shame.
 

Lokheit

Noob
@Lokheit thoughts on Cryomancer vs Mournful? Iv only played a good Mournful once and it was months ago. It felt pretty 5-5 then and the characters are virtually unchanged since.
Mournful is probably the best Kitana vs Cryo. The other 2 can't zone him and can't exploit his weaknesses properly so that's why I think Cryo wins those matchups. Mournful is decent at those points so it's probably even. I haven't seen a lot of Mournful but definitely the Kitana to use against Cryo. I'd say a 5-5 as you said.

Basically I think GM destroys Kitana, Cryo can beat her (2 good ones, 1 even), and Unbreakable is that weird guy that you want to act as if he doesn't exist. So basically I would change the OP to state that Total Kitana loses VS Total Sub-Zero.
 

SM StarGazer

The voice of reason in a Sea of Salt
I personally believe Mournful ifbgreat against any form of Subzero. He cannot use a string ending in clone, it must be Exclone or it gets blown up by ExGlaive, ExStaff(certain ranges), and ExShadowkick. You can easily punish raw ice ball, and iceball behind clone as ExAirglaive has a return trip. It can also get her out of the corner.

Its patience...plain and simple.
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
Seems about right to me, though I do agree that an "averaged" number can be misleading.

I'd like to see each of Kitana's variations compared to all other variations. Yes, I know it would be a lot of work, but multiple, like-minded individuals could be working on it and discussing things here. I'd work on it myself, but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as tournament players, and completely clueless on Mournful as I can't stand playing it.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Mournful is probably the best Kitana vs Cryo. The other 2 can't zone him and can't exploit his weaknesses properly so that's why I think Cryo wins those matchups. Mournful is decent at those points so it's probably even. I haven't seen a lot of Mournful but definitely the Kitana to use against Cryo. I'd say a 5-5 as you said.

Basically I think GM destroys Kitana, Cryo can beat her (2 good ones, 1 even), and Unbreakable is that weird guy that you want to act as if he doesn't exist. So basically I would change the OP to state that Total Kitana loses VS Total Sub-Zero.
I agree that Mournful is the variation to use against any Sub variation.

I disagree with cryo tho, at least against RS. You already mentioned Mournful and I agree with that. RS on the other hand, I feel like she wins that one as well. Ice ball is a non factor because of the reflect. There's no clone so we can actually escape the corner and hold a life lead. Yea you can slide under the fans, but then you risk getting hit by a lift, which is a very good footsie tool in this match and in general. I don't see anything threatening to call this MU even against RS.

Also, I don't think GM beats Mournful either. She zones him, ex glaive beats ice clone and punishes it in most cases, and ex shadow kick is a good move to use against ice clone in the corner since it's safe against him. Not saying she wins it, it's still an annoying MU, but it's definitely better than RS and Assassin
 

Lokheit

Noob
I agree that Mournful is the variation to use against any Sub variation.

I disagree with cryo tho, at least against RS. You already mentioned Mournful and I agree with that. RS on the other hand, I feel like she wins that one as well. Ice ball is a non factor because of the reflect. There's no clone so we can actually escape the corner and hold a life lead. Yea you can slide under the fans, but then you risk getting hit by a lift, which is a very good footsie tool in this match and in general. I don't see anything threatening to call this MU even against RS.

Also, I don't think GM beats Mournful either. She zones him, ex glaive beats ice clone and punishes it in most cases, and ex shadow kick is a good move to use against ice clone in the corner since it's safe against him. Not saying she wins it, it's still an annoying MU, but it's definitely better than RS and Assassin
Well I find it weird that I insist so much on Cryo winning a particular match up when I'm one of the most vocal "buff Cryo" guys.

IDK maybe I'm so used to dealing with how hard some of his match ups are that when I don't have such a hard time I think that's a winning match up but definitely RS and Assassin Kitana are some of my favorite opponents.

Cryo has a very good number of horrible match ups and I will keep trying to point out his big weaknesses even if I've lost any hope of them being balanced, but Kitana is one of the few match ups where I'm really comfortable.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
Sub can slides under glaive, except from absolute full screen. Why can't fan throwing Kitana zone Cryo but Mournful can? It's not like he can slide under fan on reaction to punish fan or can counter zone safely. Yea she does no damage but she can build tons of meter
 

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
I don't get it, why are we still not treating each variation as a separate MU when it comes to numbers? It doesn't make any sense @xKhaoTik
 

Lokheit

Noob
Sub can slides under glaive, except from absolute full screen. Why can't fan throwing Kitana zone Cryo but Mournful can? It's not like he can slide under fan on reaction to punish fan or can counter zone safely. Yea she does no damage but she can build tons of meter
IAGlaive.

I said she was decent or better than the others at exploiting his weaknesses. I don't think she beats him but I think she's the best for the match up compared with the others.

Cryo has a hard time against a combination of at least 2 of: good pressure (Mournful at least has a meter based form of pressure, it's not that great but better than the other variations), good neutral (again, might not be the best in the game but Mournful is her best option IMO) and projectiles that cover every angle (IAGlaive has holes and won't stop him like a low projectile or other angled IAProjectiles, but it's a better tool to stop him than IAFans).
 

errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
Against Sonya there's a good way to abuse Demolition's weakness: if you unfortunately eat a Sonya's combo, break at the 3rd grenade, korean backdash and start spamming. Sonya is in some trouble then.
But I think the 5.5-4.5 is meant to be average matchup so Kitana might be even against Demolition and win other two
With all due respect, but that would be dumbest thing you can do. After the 3rd grenade, Sonya ends the combo with F4 that only adds a few % to her damage. So why would you waste two bars of meter for breaker after all the damage has been done? And is it possible to backdash after you wasted your stamina?
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
With all due respect, but that would be dumbest thing you can do. After the 3rd grenade, Sonya ends the combo with F4 that only adds a few % to her damage. So why would you waste two bars of meter for breaker after all the damage has been done? And is it possible to backdash after you wasted your stamina?
Kitana's Korean Backdash doesn't require stamina and is faster than her normal backdash. It's also the fastest backdash in the game