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Breakthrough Joker space control

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
UPDATED:
Below is a diagram of Joker's space control at any one point in time. It does not include jump in attacks; certain specials (meter burns), traits or supers.

Please note this may not be 100% accurate as I do not have the actual hit box data. This is all just stuff I could find on training mode.




Direct link:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/aamirsaab/44b5d6e1-a95c-46aa-9fab-ecbe487085c0_zps129e30db.jpg
Image courtesy of: DeusEx4Ever·


Legend:

A) Joker's stance in the diagram is considered OPEN (facing towards you)

B) 1 square floor tile = 1 character space

Red: Crow bar (UPDATED)
Green: Laughing Gas (approx 8 squares)
Green Dots: Rolling gas (full screen)
Purple: BANG
Brown star: Chattering teeth (close is approx 0.5 a square infront of Joker; Normal is 1.5; Far is 2.5
White: Acid Blossom

Blue: Standing 1
Blue dots: Back 1 (aka "Footsie")
Blue double line: Down 1

Yellow: Standing 2
Yellow dots: Back 2
Yellow dash: Forward 2
Yellow double line: Down 2 (UPDATED)

Orange: Standing 3
Orange dots: Back 3 (UPDATED)
Orange Dash: Forward 3 (UPDATED)
Orange double line: Down 3 (UPDATED)

Notes:

* Minor over lap with a couple of normals, but they tend to hit at different angles and have different frame data so nothing to really worry about.

* Acid Blossom has a weird hit box. Visually, it should hit further than it actually does but for whatever reason it doesn't. The hit box shown above is it's actual range.

* Down 3 has quite good range - one of his longest reaching normals.

* He can prime his gun shot and dash back or forwards to cancel it (building meter). Dash cancel forwards into Gun shot works. Dash cancel back gun shot doesn't :(

* Also, primed gun shot has a (long) time limit until it auto discharges, so you can't prime it indefinitely.

* I actually like his design much for the same reasons I liked Grundy's - everything about it screams Joker, so props to NRS for a really fun incarnation and realization of this character. But all this said, apparently he's not doing so hot on the tier list....:/ (See discussion below)

UPDATED
* Cat pointed out that some of Joker's moves have different ranges depending on the stance. I've not gone through all of them yet [WIP], but I'll give a quick list of what has been found so far:

Closed stance versus Open stance:
B1 (footsie) has slightly more range than in Opened stance
D, 3 has slightly more range than in Opened stance
Standing 2 has slightly less range than in Opened stance
Acid Blossim has slightly less range than in Opened stance

Haven't tested these extensively so don't know to full extent of how it will impact on the character and or match-ups.


Anyways, enjoy, and feel free to tag whoever else may find this useful!
 

laudanum09

Darling
If Joker had a faster Laughing Gas, slightly faster RLG and we were able to move and weren't stuck to the floor after tossing it out, crowbar was safe, then we'd have an actually strong and interesting zoning character. It almost seems as if that's what he was intended to be, but they dropped the ball and he's a weird hybrid that no one can really understand how to play as a character archetype, even us mains. It seems like he was intended to have more going for him than j3, j2 all day and then hit confirm into a combo/frametrap/safe string/ghetto reset.
 

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
I think the problem is how NRS goes about designing their characters. I mentioned above how Joker feels like Joker and in that sense he is well realised in terms of move set etc. But NRS balances their characters after their move set is created so balance is strictly focused on the existing moves properties (damage; frame data; hit boxes etc) rather than the move set itself.

So while its great having a well realised character in terms of "feel" this means relatively little if his play style doesn't function particularly well or has little to no synergy e.g Joker and to an extent even DeathStroke (I've read several DS users posts saying "well how exactly do we use him?")

Another character who "feels" right is Stupid-man...I mean Super-man. All of his powers are present but in this particulsr case his play style is fucking stupid because he essentially has too much ( so he's a little too well realised). This makes it very difficult to balance him post creation. Characters like Kung Lao and recent injustice DLC Scorpion and Bat Girl fall into this category - a damage or frame nerf won't fix the actual problem. A well designed and carefully crafted move set will.
 
Very nice. Wouldn't be a bad sticky. It's a bit cluttered, though. Some good would be done by breaking it up a bit and/or making it an intractable GIF. Still, good work.
 

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
Very nice. Wouldn't be a bad sticky. It's a bit cluttered, though. Some good would be done by breaking it up a bit and/or making it an intractable GIF. Still, good work.
Thanks for the feedback. In an ideal world these diagrams would all be in an online data base format with the option to select each individual moves hit boxes aswell as their hurt boxes (all of which would be provided by the developers themselves)

Unfortunately I have only the game itself, ms word and paint at my disposal lol!
 

Jarc

Uh huh, we get it, yup, yeah, you too.
Pakman I think you mixed up f.2 & d.2's ranges! Overall a super nifty image though, thanks dude!!
 

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
Pakman I think you mixed up f.2 & d.2's ranges!
To clarify:

D,2 (double yellow line box) is his (awesome) crowbar anti air.

F, 2 is his knife starter that leads into 3 (iirc)

Overall a super nifty image though, thanks dude!!
Anytime :) Everyone is in bitch mode atm (to be fair, we've all been in bitch mode [for different reasons] since this game was released lol), might as well do something productive for the community :D
 

laudanum09

Darling
Yup, the bitch mode is incredible to witness in the main forums. More people crying over Deathstroke nerfs than over the absence of Joker/Bane/Lobo buffs which makes absolutely no sense to me. Even here, no one actually bitches about Joker, it's all like tea and crumpets thoughtful analysis, lol.

Seeing this makes me kind of sad...these space control tools rival all of the other zoners in the game. Mid-screen control and full screen. Joker's character design would have been brilliant for a zoner....not really his character style but if they went that way and made his tools actually work, it would have been awesome. I wonder if there's a build somewhere with LG and RLG actually usable as long range tools? God he would have been a nightmare to get in on.
 

insomnia_ftw

It's simple.. We normalize the superman.
Anytime :) Everyone is in bitch mode atm (to be fair, we've all been in bitch mode [for different reasons] since this game was released lol), might as well do something productive for the community :D
Good shit man, we definitely appreciate it.
 

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
Regarding archetypes and character design (warning long ass post; wall of china levels!)

In fairness to NRS and any game developer trying to make a decent Superhero FG, it is actually a very difficult feat to balance "character essence (or feel)" with "character archetype". For example, what actual archetype would Super-Man actually fit? His powers are literally everything. And it's not like you can have him without heat visions (although I do question why he needs 3 versions!) or power punches or ice breath or grab lifts etc - without those present in his move set he simply wouldn't be Superman.

But when you put them in the game and they work like they should, well he's kind of overpowered because he can do everything and fits multiple archetypes (he can projectile zone; he can open you up with relentless rush down; he can reset; he can grapple etc etc).

And that's friggin' Superman...How the heck do you go about designing say Joker's archetype? Hawkgirl? Lex? The more obscure/lesser known characters are just as hard (if not harder) to design archetype wise as the iconic ones. So it should come as no surprise most of the current top tiers in injustice also tend to be the most well known; likewise the lesser known/more obscure tend to be a lot lower down the tier list...

I think going the superhero route actually forces the developers hands quite a bit when it comes to designing the characters, (I've realised this after more thought on the matter) so I'm going to eat some humble pie and not complain about NRS' character archetypes or designs ever again (even for MK). Apologies for any shit I have given to NRS about the subject.

Coming primarily from an SF and Tekken background, I guess I've been spoiled by "good" character designs where move sets have an internal logic because of how the characters and their move set were built from the ground up (you can figure this out yourself by reverse engineering their move set).

Generally speaking, no one character in any of those games has a move that "doesn't fit" their play style and pretty much everyone fits an identifiable archetype (because the devs hands aren't tied to any existing versions of their characters e.g. comic books - so they don't have to find a balance between an existing character's essence and character archetype because these are both formed when the character itself is created) .

So when I come over to Injustice/MK and find things that "don't fit" or characters don't seem to have an "archetype", I get a little flummoxed (and sometimes angry lol)

TL;DR: But, I've decided I'm going to relax about the issue, hold dat shit, and concentrate on playing the game and helping the community with these diagrams instead :)
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Hey just some stuff
f3 has more range than b3 (but f3 does move him forward, don't know if you are excluding that on purpoes)
his d3 range is just short of his f3 but is longer than b3
His d2 range equals his b3 (or might be JUST shorter)

Awesome job on the diagrams btw
 

Cat

This guy looks kind of tuff...
UPDATED:
Below is a diagram of Joker's space control at any one point in time. It does not include jump in attacks; certain specials (meter burns), traits or supers.

Please note this may not be 100% accurate as I do not have the actual hit box data. This is all just stuff I could find on training mode.




Direct link:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/aamirsaab/44b5d6e1-a95c-46aa-9fab-ecbe487085c0_zps129e30db.jpg
Image courtesy of: DeusEx4Ever·


Legend:

1 square floor tile = 1 character space

Red: Crow bar (UPDATED)
Green: Laughing Gas (approx 8 squares)
Green Dots: Rolling gas (full screen)
Purple: BANG
Brown star: Chattering teeth (close is approx 0.5 a square infront of Joker; Normal is 1.5; Far is 2.5
White: Acid Blossom

Blue: Standing 1
Blue dots: Back 1 (aka "Footsie")
Blue double line: Down 1

Yellow: Standing 2
Yellow dots: Back 2
Yellow dash: Forward 2
Yellow double line: Down 2 (UPDATED)

Orange: Standing 3
Orange dots: Back 3 (UPDATED)
Orange Dash: Forward 3 (UPDATED)
Orange double line: Down 3 (UPDATED)

Notes:

* Minor over lap with a couple of normals, but they tend to hit at different angles and have different frame data so nothing to really worry about.

* Acid Blossom has a weird hit box. Visually, it should hit further than it actually does but for whatever reason it doesn't. The hit box shown above is it's actual range.

* Down 3 has quite good range - one of his longest reaching normals.

* He can prime his gun shot and dash back or forwards to cancel it (building meter). Dash cancel forwards into Gun shot works. Dash cancel back gun shot doesn't :(

* Also, primed gun shot has a (long) time limit until it auto discharges, so you can't prime it indefinitely.

* I actually like his design much for the same reasons I liked Grundy's - everything about it screams Joker, so props to NRS for a really fun incarnation and realization of this character. But all this said, apparently he's not doing so hot on the tier list....:/ (See discussion below)

Anyways, enjoy, and feel free to tag whoever else may find this useful!
Good stuff. Have you checked b1 range depending on stance?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
 

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
Good stuff. Have you checked b1 range depending on stance?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
Not in closed stance. Will test later and make any changes/notes as necessary.

For the record, these were all tested in open stance (I.e the stance joker is in in the diagram)
 

Cat

This guy looks kind of tuff...
Not in closed stance. Will test later and make any changes/notes as necessary.

For the record, these were all tested in open stance (I.e the stance joker is in in the diagram)
Alright. Cus ranges for that and acid blossom differ

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
 

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
OP updated...again :p

Additional notes:

* Because all characters move around slightly (in neutral position, regardless of stance), this can potentially affect hurt boxes and hit boxes. For example, I repeatedly mashed d,1 with Joker - visually I could see a slight disparity in ranges (they were all different). Tried this in closed stance and with otherr moves - this disparity is consistent with pretty much all attacks. However, the disparity is also extremely minute and shouldn't affect you in a match: you won't whiff a move because your character (or theirs) happened to move an eight of a pixel to the left/right for example - if you are in range, then it will hit. It's only a problem for me really because it makes it difficult to ascertain the exact range....so there shouldn't be anything to worry about :)

* Hurt boxes: As far as I can tell, the hurt box for all characters is literally their entire body - what you see is what you get. There are no phantom hurt boxes (or boxes that go beyond the actual character's body) although their are obviously different character sizes: pixie's [every female character; some males such as Sinestro]; normal's [Batman, Superman, etc] and Big's [lex, bane, grundy, DD).
 

Jack White

The Clown Prince of Crime
And that's friggin' Superman...How the heck do you go about designing say Joker's archetype? Hawkgirl? Lex? The more obscure/lesser known characters are just as hard (if not harder) to design archetype wise as the iconic ones. So it should come as no surprise most of the current top tiers in injustice also tend to be the most well known; likewise the lesser known/more obscure tend to be a lot lower down the tier list...
But this is the freaking Joker! The most iconic supervillain of all time! We're not talking about some random schmoe here, we're discussing one of the all time most recognizable characters out there period. He deserved a heck of a lot more than this.
 

laudanum09

Darling
But this is the freaking Joker! The most iconic supervillain of all time! We're not talking about some random schmoe here, we're discussing one of the all time most recognizable characters out there period. He deserved a heck of a lot more than this.
His moveset is amazing. just look at that diagram. It's his FRAMES. Joker could easily turn into a rushdown monster or a nightmare keepaway character with frame changes.

He's got everything he needs, he has the moveset he should. His frames however, are gimped to the point of rendering all of that space control and potential keepaway/rushdown totally moot.
 

OnlineRon91

Joker++
Very cool! I was actually working on something like this last sat on the train ride to class. Theorizing the ranges at which Joker can do x and y, but you even have the diagram to boot! Great work!
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
To be fair Ron, with the patches and stuff, some of those may have changed. I know for a fact the acid blossom hitbox is more (soap bar in my mouth) than what's on here.
 

Pakman

Lawless Victory!
To be fair Ron, with the patches and stuff, some of those may have changed. I know for a fact the acid blossom hitbox is more (soap bar in my mouth) than what's on here.
I haven't played this game in ages lol.

When I get a chance, I'll try and update it again.