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Strategy Joker anti-wakeup/oki options

Vocket

Day 1 Phenomenal Teth-Adam Player
I was rather surprised to see that there was no general thread on countering opponents wake-ups considering Joker is a setup character. So I made this thread as a player new to Joker trying to see how I could blow up certain characters wake-ups in the corner.
What really helped me was glass sword's thread at http://testyourmight.com/threads/wakeups-and-you.40475/ that lists all wake-ups and their invincibility.

As you will see in the videos below, the setup I use is SHKD into teeth, and then I do and instant jump attack to synchronize with the teeth explosion and also avoid their wakeup. This is surprisingly effective, as Joker's aerial attacks have great range and a lot of wake-ups don't cover the area directly above the character.
The characters I tested this on have pretty terrible wake-ups so it is no surprise that the setup works. If the character has a fully invincible wake-up the instant jump attack into teeth setup will probably not work.

For anyone wanting to test, please make sure that you do the wake-up as early as possible and then as late as possible. Even with hard knockdowns there is still a window for opponents to adjust the timing. I could occasionally backdash the jump attack teeth setup but it was inconsistent and very hard, especally since the Joker can intentionally change the timing.
Finally, one cannot jump or stay crouching, they will still get hit by the setup.


Joker:
Only the flower and crowbar have invincible, and the flower does hit aerial opponents, so Joker gets destroyed by the setup.


Batman
Batman only has slide and parry as his wake-ups. Parry does not work against aerial attacks so that leaves slide. The slide is a bit tricky to punish, as you must hit confirm whether he did slide and dash back or jump back to escape. With slide he escapes the corner.


Aquaman
All of his good wake-ups (scoop, rush, water shield) have invicible, but only at the beginning. In fact it may be possible to stuff all three with just teeth. Unfortunately, Aquaman can use his trait to escape the unblockable setup by just ducking.


Zod
This one was the most iffy as the invincibility on Zod's wake-ups lasts for quite a while and it is difficult to stuff . He can do an early zod charge to avoid the jump attack and get out of the corner, or a late phantom strike to avoid the jump attack and go through it with invicibility.


I would like to make a comprehensive list, I can see that Joker is a very complex (technically for sure) character and enjoy digesting the advanced information.
 
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StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Rather than doing the instant jump attack, we generally go for a crossup j2 or mb f3 in that setup. It produces the same unblockable situation and the crossup jump has the added bonus of reversing the opponents inputs if timed properly, while mb f3 eats wakeup attempts and smacks them back down into the teeth to be launched. Those 2 options cover most of the cast, with the only exceptions being teleporters like shazam, whom you have to read it and jump back to catch them, and a few other specific things like Flash's flying uppercut going over mb f3 and generally tracking on the crossup (though he'll still get launched).
We also have a nice window for stuffing wakeups after raw (non-mb) crowbar into teeth into 21 or b13, depending on the character and the wakeup. b13 will produce a near unblockable and launch them into a loop for the same situation all over again. If the wakeup is slow enough, you can go into the infinite here as well.
This is cool too though. I like it for a high level yomi situation where you might make your opponent think you're doing some kinda DD-style crossup when you dash into them on the ground.
 

Vocket

Day 1 Phenomenal Teth-Adam Player
Rather than doing the instant jump attack, we generally go for a crossup j2 or mb f3 in that setup. It produces the same unblockable situation and the crossup jump has the added bonus of reversing the opponents inputs if timed properly, while mb f3 eats wakeup attempts and smacks them back down into the teeth to be launched. Those 2 options cover most of the cast, with the only exceptions being teleporters like shazam, whom you have to read it and jump back to catch them, and a few other specific things like Flash's flying uppercut going over mb f3 and generally tracking on the crossup (though he'll still get launched).
We also have a nice window for stuffing wakeups after raw (non-mb) crowbar into teeth into 21 or b13, depending on the character and the wakeup. b13 will produce a near unblockable and launch them into a loop for the same situation all over again. If the wakeup is slow enough, you can go into the infinite here as well.
This is cool too though. I like it for a high level yomi situation where you might make your opponent think you're doing some kinda DD-style crossup when you dash into them on the ground.
Man I really feel like my thread is useless now. I had trouble doing timing cross up j2 as I was able to backdash it but I was probably just mistiming it. It just seemed to me that there was all this talk about Joker's corner game but no guide on how to abuse his corner game. (I only knew about mb f3).

I see you are doing a guide, however, and I can't wait to see it. As for this setup being useful, I think it is better than cross up j2 in some cases, because they have less time to react and some wake-ups can only be stuffed by the instant jump attack, like Zod's wake-ups. Once they see that you are dashing up to them they might decide to not wake-up and that gives more options.
Ill finish recording other characters I tried to this setup on, so far I am trying it on Sinestro (very tight timing) and Black Adam (small window to hit him out too).
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Man I really feel like my thread is useless now. I had trouble doing timing cross up j2 as I was able to backdash it but I was probably just mistiming it. It just seemed to me that there was all this talk about Joker's corner game but no guide on how to abuse his corner game. (I only knew about mb f3).

I see you are doing a guide, however, and I can't wait to see it. As for this setup being useful, I think it is better than cross up j2 in some cases, because they have less time to react and some wake-ups can only be stuffed by the instant jump attack, like Zod's wake-ups. Once they see that you are dashing up to them they might decide to not wake-up and that gives more options.
Ill finish recording other characters I tried to this setup on, so far I am trying it on Sinestro (very tight timing) and Black Adam (small window to hit him out too).
It's not useless at all man. It's definitely a good thing to have around. Definitely a valid option against people with stuffable wakeups when you don't have the meter for a mb f3.
This can also probably work well midscreen in different situations where you train someone that you'll punish their backdash out of teeth with j3, so they wait on teeth and you time a quick dashup instant j2. This kinda thing definitely has it's utility.
 
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Fromundaman

I write too much.
The thing with stuffing wakeups is that it very much depends on the character, especially midscreen. For example my setups for stuffing GL's lift are very different from how I would stuff BA's lightning cage. The other problem is that without a way to record, it is really hard for me to explain how I stuff certain wakeups.

For example, against a GL player that hasn't yet been trained to tech roll I will use Combo starter>B3>j2>F23>far teeth>walk forward/backwards/mix of the two/stand still and wait>ambiguous ji2/ji3. When timed correctly it will barely cross up/not cross up and stuff the lift while being really hard to block.

Against BA's lightning cage, if you time it right you can dash up and stuff it with 21 off of any setup. An easier way is just to stand at max D2 range and do a meaty D2 canceled into overhead crowbar (This actually works against a fair number of wakeups and is really effective when the opponent also has teeth on them). The D2 gets eaten by the invincibility but the BF3 will hit, and if they block instead then they eat a hard-to-blockable. That said DO NOT MB the crowbar in this setup! With max spacing, only the first hit of the BF3 will hit for some reason if the teeth also hit, and if you MB it the opponent will actually get popped up by teeth, land on the ground and recover while you are still uselessly hammering away with the crowbar, allowing you to get punished.
 

Vocket

Day 1 Phenomenal Teth-Adam Player
You are right that it depends on the character, but would still like to go through every character and the best possible option to counter the wake-up. Midscreen it becomes more interesting and when you add in tech rolls you can a whole lot of options.

Doing a meaty D2 into the crowbar is a great idea, definitely a creative way to stuff wake-ups. It seems like it would work best for wake-ups that have invincibility at the beginning and a long punish window.

I tried instant jump attack Sinestro, and what I found to be the best is a close up slightly delayed jump 3. There is a gap in his arachnid wake-up and being close up and above him makes it so that the stinger part of his arachnid takes a while to hit you. Unfortantely, I could do a max delay wake-up with stinger with Sinestro and get hit out. Maybe it only works with perfect timing

EDIT: I think early jump 1 works better after more testing
 
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StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Against BA's lightning cage, if you time it right you can dash up and stuff it with 21 off of any setup. An easier way is just to stand at max D2 range and do a meaty D2 canceled into overhead crowbar (This actually works against a fair number of wakeups and is really effective when the opponent also has teeth on them). The D2 gets eaten by the invincibility but the BF3 will hit, and if they block instead then they eat a hard-to-blockable. That said DO NOT MB the crowbar in this setup! With max spacing, only the first hit of the BF3 will hit for some reason if the teeth also hit, and if you MB it the opponent will actually get popped up by teeth, land on the ground and recover while you are still uselessly hammering away with the crowbar, allowing you to get punished.
Probably my favorite glitch in this game.
I do this too though if I'm not able to get closer and do the same sort of thing with b1 crowbar during the KD window.
Good stuff.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
You are right that it depends on the character, but would still like to go through every character and the best possible option to counter the wake-up. Midscreen it becomes more interesting and when you add in tech rolls you can a whole lot of options.

Doing a meaty D2 into the crowbar is a great idea, definitely a creative way to stuff wake-ups. It seems like it would work best for wake-ups that have invincibility at the beginning and a long punish window.

I tried instant jump attack Sinestro, and what I found to be the best is a close up slightly delayed jump 3. There is a gap in his arachnid wake-up and being close up and above him makes it so that the stinger part of his arachnid takes a while to hit you. Unfortantely, I could do a max delay wake-up with stinger with Sinestro and get hit out. Maybe it only works with perfect timing
TBH the D2>Overhead crowbar is best used against wakeups that get outranged by D2 and don't move while being invincible since you are essentially doing a meaty disjoincted move that leads into either a hard-to-block situation or a whiff punish.


For punishing Sinestro, I would honestly suggest just going for MB F3. It only has one hit (There is a huge delay before the MB hit comes out) and that way you don't need to guess. If you don't have meter, it's extremely punishable on block if you can bait it out, and if you don't think he'll throw it out then just do whatever you want.



Also going through every character and all of their wakeups would be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering it depends on what you did to get them to the ground and where you did it.
Some wakeups also require solid reads.

That said, stuffing Shazam's wakeups:

Place teeth on him. Guess where he's going to teleport and J2 at it. I usually always jump in to pressure him then jump to where I think he'll teleport.
Also if you think he's going to wakeup command grab, then you can overhead crowbar right through it. If he grabs, he gets hit. If he blocks it's a "hard to block"able. If he teleports, then you're still safe but made the wrong read.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Probably my favorite glitch in this game.
I do this too though if I'm not able to get closer and do the same sort of thing with b1 crowbar during the KD window.
Good stuff.
Ugh... That glitch...

I think I have rage quit, walked around a bit, ranted and raged about it, then either played pinball or poured myself a drink (Depending on if I'm at home or at the arcade) literally every match that this has happened.
It gives me flashbacks to playing Brawl and PSAS, where I also played characters who could be punished for successfully landing a hit due to glitches.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Ugh... That glitch...

I think I have rage quit, walked around a bit, ranted and raged about it, then either played pinball or poured myself a drink (Depending on if I'm at home or at the arcade) literally every match that this has happened.
It gives me flashbacks to playing Brawl and PSAS, where I also played characters who could be punished for successfully landing a hit due to glitches.
Haha I generally just punch myself in the head a few times, laugh manically, and continue playing. It freaks out Arma and Fran hahaha.
 

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
How Do You Post Your Youtube Videos on This Website? (I'm new to to this website)
When you make a post, there's a little tool bar above the message box. There's an icon that is two film reels right next to eachother. Look for a Smiley Face and it's two spaces to the right of it.
 
you make a post, there's a little tool bar above the message box. There's an icon that is two film reels right next to eachother. Look for a Smiley Face and it's two spaces to the right of it.
Thanks! But how do I even make a post in the first place?
 

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
you make a post, there's a little tool bar above the message box. There's an icon that is two film reels right next to eachother. Look for a Smiley Face and it's two spaces to the right of it.
Thanks! But how do I even make a post in the first place?
You just did lol. When you open the tab just paste the youtube URL and hit Embed.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
As for when Stev0's guide is supposedly coming out:

The same day as Starcraft: Ghost and the fabled Playstation Allstars patch.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Shoot! Your making a Joker guide??!! Darn, me and Ice King are making one too. When is your's going to come out?
As for when Stev0's guide is supposedly coming out:

The same day as Starcraft: Ghost and the fabled Playstation Allstars patch.
Lol hopefully I'll have time to do the voice recording stuff for it either this week or next week. Sorry this has been so delayed for so long! We just kept coming up for more crap for me to add lol.
I'm shooting for hopefully next weekend getting everything finalized.
And BEAST, if you wanna create a thread you have to go into the forum that you wanna post in, and toward the top right of the page, just a little ways down, there is a "Post Thread" button.
There's too much build up... it's gonna be a flop... lol
 
And BEAST, if you wanna create a thread you have to go into the forum that you wanna post in, and toward the top right of the page, just a little ways down, there is a "Post Thread" button.

Yea sorry about that. I meant to say forum. Didn't know there was a difference lol. :D
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
And BEAST, if you wanna create a thread you have to go into the forum that you wanna post in, and toward the top right of the page, just a little ways down, there is a "Post Thread" button.

Yea sorry about that. I meant to say forum. Didn't know there was a difference lol. :D
I'm pretty sure only the mods and staff can create forums. You can only create threads within those forums.