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Johnny Cage's Nerfs Don't Make Sense

mrapchem

Noob
I see Raiden being mentioned a few times and it's regarding the string that's +6. While having anything that's so plus is definitely a good thing, I'd like to clear something up. There's a huge gap between the S32 and the last hit 1 (big enough to full combo punish), and while Raiden can stagger the string (it's only -3), the most important thing is that S3 has an absolutely terrible hit-box, and whiffs on crouch blocking opponents at anywhere other than super point blank, this coupled with the fact that it's 11f (a just frame jail from his D3) means that it's extremely unlikely that Raiden will be able to use this string without getting poked out due to the large interval between hits. Not to mention on small hurt-box characters it is still impossible to really jail this normal from pokes or even from his mids on hit because of the pushback and the bad hit-box.

I'm not going to comment on Johnny's nerfs, I just wanted to clear this up in case people think Raiden getting a +6 string is the biggest deal in the world.
I truly appreciate you giving us game on Raiden's +6 string buff in a constructive and informative manner. Some triggered idiot made a comment earlier in the thread that was laughed at by me and ignored by everyone else. It's good to know that such a person doesn't appear to adequately represent Raiden players.

About Raiden, the only reason I brought him up was to point out that it makes no sense for NRS to take a particular tool from one character (in 3 different ways, mind you) and then turn right around and give that exact tool to another character. In fairness, Raiden did indeed need all the help he could get and since the +6 string has all the caveats that you pointed out, I have no issue with Raiden obtaining something like that.

It simply isn't fair that Johnny Cage had to have all of his +6 tools removed. I'm cool with the two strings having toned-down plus frames, but not the straight fireballs. They either need to jail on the entire cast and be +3 or only jail on male characters, but be +6 on block so that Outtake still has its role for fighting female characters.

But again, I thank you - as well as everyone else, minus the aforementioned fool - for being polite and informative in your contribution to this thread.
 
If anyone watched the doco on KI, there was a very interesting bit on balancing Jago at one point. Apparently the players thought his healing move was too OP, the dev's then spent a long time looking at it and ended up changing the frames on his wind kick. Everyone was getting the pitchforks out because it wasn't what they wanted... then a few months later it was forgotten because it turned out the dev's were right and that small change ended up changing his matchups considerably.

I'm not saying that what NRS did or didn't do is right or wrong, but it's a very interesting look into how changes are/might be made looking at the game from different sides.

Just because NRS doesn't do what the community might think is right everytime, doesn't mean it's automatically wrong.
 

mrapchem

Noob
If anyone watched the doco on KI, there was a very interesting bit on balancing Jago at one point. Apparently the players thought his healing move was too OP, the dev's then spent a long time looking at it and ended up changing the frames on his wind kick. Everyone was getting the pitchforks out because it wasn't what they wanted... then a few months later it was forgotten because it turned out the dev's were right and that small change ended up changing his matchups considerably.

I'm not saying that what NRS did or didn't do is right or wrong, but it's a very interesting look into how changes are/might be made looking at the game from different sides.

Just because NRS doesn't do what the community might think is right everytime, doesn't mean it's automatically wrong.
I understand that perspective and I would agree with it....for any other developer that isn't NRS.

I've been playing Mortal Kombat since the Midway days like so many of us have and we've watched the developers and the games grow into a tournament-ready franchise. In that process, beginning with MK9, NRS has established a pattern where when they change characters, it's either far too much(where they get the nerf bat) or far too little. On occasion, they change a character in exactly the right way, where they're still good, but not dumb, but those occurrences were few and far-between. As the games have progressed, they've gotten much better at not changing so many characters so drastically, but they still have an issue where they adjust characters too dramatically in ways that do not address their core issues.

Even in this game, NRS has adjusted several characters in palpable ways that objectively made them worse without offering their players other tools. Some of those characters include Kollector, Kotal Kahn, Kitana, Scorpion, Sonya and now Johnny Cage. To be fair, many of those characters have now received buffs after being mediocre for the better part of the game's lifespan, but some like Sonya have gotten nothing but nerfed up until this very last patch wherein NRS buffed things about her that don't address her issues of being extremely linear, only having one launching combo mid-screen that is unsafe on block and not having any mids.

In the case of Johnny Cage, he's had whiffing issues from Day 1 that were never fixed on one of his primary offensive tools that was already situational (EX-straight forceball). The character more or less plays the game without being able to use Krushing Blows like everyone else. And now he has one of the very worst armor-breaking moves in the entire game that is also situational, doesn't provide a combo opportunity and does not allow for a one-time KB - and it does less damage than an uppercut. Not only has NRS not addressed those issues, now they've taken the core utility away from the EX Straight Forceball, making the move both situational and useless.

There is nothing about that change that is possibly right; NRS is not correct about this one.
 
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mrapchem

Noob
What exactly were the nerfs johnny recieved?
All of Johnny Cage's plus-frame strings and moves were changed from being +6 on block to being +1. This includes his EX-Straight Forceballs that didn't jail correctly on about a third of the cast.
 
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All of Johnny Cage's plus-frame strings and moves were changed from being +6 on block to being +1. This includes his EX-Straight Forceballs that didn't jail correctly on about a third of the cast.
I always just skimmed over what frame dat actually meant. So if you don't mind, educate me here. I play shang, does this mean i can poke outta his strings? Jump out? Throw?
 
I always just skimmed over what frame dat actually meant. So if you don't mind, educate me here. I play shang, does this mean i can poke outta his strings? Jump out? Throw?
124 and 34u3 used to be +6 with pushback, and even tho it didn’t guarantee anything u still had to respect his options in F3, Dash D4, Dash Throw. But now that it’s +1 with pushback it’s essentially a neutral reset. You can jump, dash in, buttons, whatever. His S1, S2, S3, and S4 are still +3 tho so u still have to respect those
 

mrapchem

Noob
I always just skimmed over what frame dat actually meant. So if you don't mind, educate me here. I play shang, does this mean i can poke outta his strings? Jump out? Throw?
Let's suppose you perform a special move against a blocking opponent - it doesn't matter what the move is.

Basically if the move is said to be 0 on block, that means both you and your opponent can move at the exact same time.

If that move is negative on block, like say -7, that means your opponent can move 7 frames before you can, so you should block after using a -7 move.

Johnny Cage had the opposite, where after he did the aforementioned strings and special move, he was +6, meaning he could move 6 frames before the opponent could. Because he was at a distance away from the opponent, the opponent could not attack him immediately or they would get hit by Johnny. However, the opponent could either backdash or duck to avoid the next attack because the overwhelming majority of Johnny's follow-up attacks were highs or a slow mid.

This patch took that away to where now Johnny Cage can only move 1 frame faster than the opponent can, which means almost nothing because as I stated earlier, Johnny is too far from the opponent to guarantee any follow-up.

So to answer your question, yes indeed you can poke/jump/throw after a Johnny Cage does those strings(124 and 34U3) on you while blocking.
 
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Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
I meant respect the plus frames once the stagger lands. Then it’s throw or D1. Or 244 is what I do
244 doesn't jail from d1, not on everyone... it SHOULD but it just doesn't. the 2 is a high and the 4 is too slow to jail anyone trying to poke out. I've eaten a stupid amount of D2 kbs from this....
 
244 doesn't jail from d1, not on everyone... it SHOULD but it just doesn't. the 2 is a high and the 4 is too slow to jail anyone trying to poke out. I've eaten a stupid amount of D2 kbs from this....
i feel that, but I might not’ve made myself clear. I mean my when I land a S2 or S1 on block, I create mix up pressure by either throwing or trying to catch a throw tech or something with 244 to take advantage of the plus frames. Just what we used to do with 124 on a smaller scale and to more risk admittedly but it’s something for sure
 

Icefyre

Shadows
What's frustrating about the straight fire ball nerf is that means they looked at the move, decided SOMETHING was off about it, and THAT was the change they made. They could at least have the balls to address the whiffing.
I’m beginning to think all these whiffing issues are intentional. Remember Catwoman? They raised her hurtbox ever so slightly on her b3, saying it was functioning as intended while whiff punishing an absurd amount of moves. So they’ve shown that can do it if they want, but game after game they just let it ride.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

WHEN IS GOD
I’m beginning to think all these whiffing issues are intentional. Remember Catwoman? They raised her hurtbox ever so slightly on her b3, saying it was functioning as intended while whiff punishing an absurd amount of moves. So they’ve shown that can do it if they want, but game after game they just let it ride.
I try not to be overly paranoid about the stuff that looks like playing favorites and outcasts, but I'm glad more people are taking notice of the indiscrepancies, because they bother the shit out of me.

Nostalgia rant: I remember when they made her F1 an overhead for who knows what reason when she was already a Top 10 contender in the game and even better at low-profiling than MK9 Costume 3 Mileena. Not to mention Batgirl, who IMO was the most busted character in that busted game, but was left completely alone because only one major player was using her. Meanwhile, that one player went on to win I believe EVERY major in 2014 that they attended with even more ease than when Reo dominated 2013 with Kabal.

Point is, early NRS days were completely insane, yet somehow in spite of the many years that have passed and the number of old tourney players who are booking the show or holding influence over the Twitch airwaves, the same kind of mistakes keep being made and left unaddressed.
And that's not me sewing deep state conspiracy; that's me being genuinely befuddled as to how the hell stuff like this keeps happening every game.