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Johnny Cage's Nerfs Don't Make Sense

mrapchem

Noob
Before a legion of non-JC players invade the thread to inform the world that Johnny Cage is still a top-tier/good character and has all these strengths, some real, others imagined, I would like a moment to beg your indulgence.

What is the reason that Johnny Cage, a character that was top-tier, but was well-balanced due to him being as limited as the player using him, got all of his +6 blockstrings/special moves nerfed nearly to uselessness, only for Raiden to gain a +6 string and five other buffs?

Why is it that two characters that were far more egregious - Geras and Jacqui - somehow managed not only to avoid nerfs, but for some perverse reason wind up even better than they were before?

How is it the case that Johnny's straight forceballs, which were already situational depending on the character he was fighting against, now give absolutely no reward for the player spending meter to enhance them? These forceballs are now completely useless and are inferior compared to his low forceball.

When will Johnny Cage be able to use the same tools that the rest of the cast has access to? He has exactly one viable KB - and it's a great one. But it's limited to one tournament variation and only occurs on a hit-confirm, as opposed to other characters that get them almost for free. Furthermore, when will Johnny be able to break armor for a combo opportunity or a KB, using a reliable and sensible special move/normal like so many in the cast currently do?

Clearly, these are rhetorical questions, but the point is obvious: it doesn't make any sense how Johnny Cage has been treated in this game.

NRS obviously designed him to have good ranges, pokes and footsies, but he has been inconsistent from Day 1 and when he has been buffed, he was given obnoxious tools that players never asked for - only to have them toned down later. Johnny Cage still needs hitbox fixes along with viable KBs as he's needed for over a year now.

Now, he also requires a much better armor-breaking move and the nerf on his straight forceballs to be completely reverted.


Make no mistake, Johnny Cage doesn't suck as a character now, but he was unfairly over-nerfed and given nothing to compensate for it.

NRS needs to fix Johnny Cage in the ways that his mains have been begging for and bring his tools in-line with everyone else. After that, they can leave him be.
 
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FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
I'm way past expecting NRS to fix Johnny's whiffing issues. At this point, it has to be intended otherwise there's no excuse for it lasting for over a year. My thing is, why +1? With the amount of pushback on 124 and 34U3, +1 may as well be 0 since we no longer have any reliable follow-ups. Make it +3, or at least remove the pushback so that we can still take advantage of the singular plus frame with a D1 or D4 check. Now the strings are just a 'reset the neutral' button so that we have space to throw more Forceballs.

I never thought I'd see the day where Johnny Cage is best played as a zoner.
 
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I'm way past expecting NRS to fix Johnny's whiffing issues. At this point, it has to be intended otherwise there's no excuse for it lasting for over a year. My thing is, why +1? With the amount of pushback on 124 and 34U4, +1 may as well be 0 since we no longer have any reliable follow-ups. Make it +3, or at least remove the pushback so that we can still take advantage of the singular plus frame with a D1 or D4 check. Now the strings are just a 'reset the neutral' button so that we have space to throw more Forceballs.
I never thought I'd see the day where Johnny Cage is best played as a zoner.
I'd rather go back to the Johnny cage that we had when shockjock was the only variation lol
 

mrapchem

Noob
I'm way past expecting NRS to fix Johnny's whiffing issues. At this point, it has to be intended otherwise there's no excuse for it lasting for over a year. My thing is, why +1? With the amount of pushback on 124 and 34U4, +1 may as well be 0 since we no longer have any reliable follow-ups. Make it +3, or at least remove the pushback so that we can still take advantage of the singular plus frame with a D1 or D4 check. Now the strings are just a 'reset the neutral' button so that we have space to throw more Forceballs.

I never thought I'd see the day where Johnny Cage is best played as a zoner.
Yeah, it's the weirdest thing - they give him 3 different options to be +6, buff two of the options so that they could actually be consistent on the whole cast, then they remove all 3 of the options, including the one the requires meter. NRS had a great character that was good, but not busted or broken and then they gutted him, without fixing his issues. It's nonsense.
 
Yeah, it's the weirdest thing - they give him 3 different options to be +6, buff two of the options so that they could actually be consistent on the whole cast, then they remove all 3 of the options, including the one the requires meter. NRS had a great character that was good, but not busted or broken and then they gutted him, without fixing his issues. It's nonsense.
He got mkxed.

People were whining about A list Cage and stunt double Cage even though there wasn’t even that many mains and they butchered both those variations lol.

I didn’t even see Cage that much even when outtake was stupid, I just saw Geras, Jacqui and the other usual suspects.
 

Zviko

Noob
Is there even a difference between +1 and +6 considering the push back on those strings? Maybe in the corner where they can't dash back.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Is there even a difference between +1 and +6 considering the push back on those strings? Maybe in the corner where they can't dash back.
microdash d4 was a good check against quite a few options, in the corner it was insane though.
I get the change, really, but how about they start addressing his flaws now? He's obviously not broken anymore so...
 
microdash d4 was a good check against quite a few options, in the corner it was insane though.
I get the change, really, but how about they start addressing his flaws now? He's obviously not broken anymore so...
microdash d4 was a good check against quite a few options, in the corner it was insane though.
I get the change, really, but how about they start addressing his flaws now? He's obviously not broken anymore so...
Same reason why Scorpion got his teleport and d4 nerfed:

The guys who are balancing the game do not play the game and don't understand how these characters are played in any way.
Didn't people advocate to keep the teleport a mid just not for it to be amplified on block?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Not sure about Geras being far more egregious that Johnny Cage. Maybe a couple patches ago, but as it stood just before Aftermath, JC is one of the simplest characters to dominate with, and that is evidenced in the results of months worth of tournaments.

Yes Sand Trap is extremely annoying, and Geras is still good, but it's Cage that has been causing far more damage both online and offline since Geras was double-nerfed.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
It does seem like he was disproportionately over nerfed. The straight forceballs whiffing seems like sheer incompetence and absolutely inexcusable, which is shocking because I honestly think MK11 is pretty polished. Would be nice to see visible hitboxes in training mode, but I know NRS would never do that because it would give everyone an aneurism.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
JC is one of the simplest characters to dominate with, and that is evidenced in the results of months worth of tournaments.
I think the results are inarguable and undeniable, even by the Johnny Cage community. LOL. But the whiffing force balls in Show Stopper are embarrassing at this point, especially now given the reduced frame advantage on block. I am not sure why this issue still persists after a year of the game's release.
 
Would've been a good idea as you needed to lab out the timing to punish both a bit.

Anyways I'm sick of these shitty nerfs while still having shit whiff or combos becoming 1 frame links vs female hurtboxes and Jacqui doing whatever the fuck she wants since day 1.
Yeah but her time is coming, everyone is starting to complain about her and how she hasn’t gotten significant nerfs.

The irony here is the same people saying Cage was strong and OD are championing for jacqui in every thread and status claiming she doesn’t need nerfs.

hell even prepatch upgraded they were like....

“is she 2 stronk?......MAAAAYYYYYBEEE.”
“Does she need normalizations?.....MAAAAAAAAYBEEEE.”
“We shuld let da meta play out!”
“Nobodys really won anything with her yet!” LOL
“YOU GUYS ARE JUST NOT LABBING YOUR OPTIONS.......”
“She’s...she’s got poor reach and 950 health!” LOL

The council of Matt Murdock, Kenshi, and Stevie Wonder could all see that Jacqui was STUPID(still is.)

straight hypocrisy lol.
 
Maybe a couple patches ago, but at it stood just before Aftermath, JC is one of the simplest characters to dominate with, and that is evidenced in the results of months worth of tournaments.
Im gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Johnny is all reads. Not gonna downplay his great frame data but its really easy to punish johnny. For instance, neutral ducking makes most of his strings really easy to react to. His plus frames were his mix, much to like how geras had legit 50/50, kbs that do an obscene amount of damage, solid mids, and oki on his throws. Likewise lets stop using tournaments as the end all be all. Cetrion is considered one of the best characters in this game, more so than johnny pre patch, but how many tournaments has she won?
 
Before a legion of non-JC players invade the thread to inform the world that Johnny Cage is still a top-tier/good character and has all these strengths, some real, others imagined, I would like a moment to beg your indulgence.

What is the reason that Johnny Cage, a character that was top-tier, but was well-balanced due to him being as limited as the player using him, got all of his +6 blockstrings/special moves nerfed nearly to uselessness, only for Raiden to gain a +6 string and five other buffs?

Why is it that two characters that were far more egregious - Geras and Jacqui - somehow managed not only to avoid nerfs, but for some perverse reason wind up even better than they were before?

How is it the case that Johnny's straight forceballs, which were already situational depending on the character he was fighting against, now give absolutely no reward for the player spending meter to enhance them? These forceballs are now completely useless and are inferior compared to his low forceball.

When will Johnny Cage be able to use the same tools that the rest of the cast has access to? He has exactly one viable KB - and it's a great one. But it's limited to one tournament variation and only occurs on a hit-confirm, as opposed to other characters that get them almost for free. Furthermore, when will Johnny be able to break armor for a combo opportunity or a KB, using a reliable and sensible special move/normal like so many in the cast currently do?

Clearly, these are rhetorical questions, but the point is obvious: it doesn't make any sense how Johnny Cage has been treated in this game.

NRS obviously designed him to have good ranges, pokes and footsies, but he has been inconsistent from Day 1 and when he has been buffed, he was given obnoxious tools that players never asked for - only to have them toned down later. Johnny Cage still needs hitbox fixes along with viable KBs as he's needed for over a year now.

Now, he also requires a much better armor-breaking move and the nerf on his straight forceballs to be completely reverted.


Make no mistake, Johnny Cage doesn't suck as a character now, but he was unfairly over-nerfed and given nothing to compensate for it.

NRS needs to fix Johnny Cage in the ways that his mains have been begging for and bring his tools in-line with everyone else. After that, they can leave him be.
I love your little baby rage. I love even more the fact that you compare Johnny's 124 to Raidens 321. Really comparable strings. Johnny 124 literally,unironically,didnt have counterplay. Second,Johnny is +60 on 1 and +150 on 12 while also being +600 on 124. Raiden is actually counter pokeable on all of these except for the last hit,but guess what? You have 11f gap in between(maybe even 12 since I was able to punish it with SZs slide). So Raidens 321 is a mind game since I have to either cover the gap,stagger or do the full string. meanwhile Johnny? 1 into grab,12 into grab,12 into forceballs,12 into rising star,124. Give me a break man,Johnny deserves all the nerfs he got. Character has most complete kit in his Outtake varation,pressure character with constant staggers and plus frames gets way to reset neutral and has zoning. Stfu and learn to play.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Not sure about Geras being far more egregious that Johnny Cage. Maybe a couple patches ago, but at it stood just before Aftermath, JC is one of the simplest characters to dominate with, and that is evidenced in the results of months worth of tournaments.

Yes Sand Trap is extremely annoying, and Geras is still good, but it's Cage that has been causing far more damage both online and offline since Geras was double-nerfed.

Johnny Cage definitely was causing damage...but he was also being used by the very best players in our scene. The Sonic-coined "1% players" could take any top 10 character and do damage with them. My point is none of Johnny's tools destroyed neutral like Sand Trap and Upgraded Leap do. Now, after this patch, Geras does unbreakable 35+% combos and Jacqui is completely untouched while her competitors all got nerfed, therefore making her the best in the game.
 
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Johnny’s entire game plan in SS and SJ revolves around his plus frames and his mix off of them. The character is nothing but highs in a game dominated by fast hit confirmable mids. He could survive and perform well because you just jail your highs off of plus frames, but now that 124 is +1 with pushback just makes the string essentially a neutral reset. Straight forceballs still whiff and are now less plus. So now his best variation is arguably Outtake. One without an decent KBs or any armor breaking move to speak of. If they fixed the whiffing on the forceballs and kept them plus then this wouldn’t be so bad. But as it stands now, Johnny doesn’t have tools besides long range highs. He was over nerfed with nothing in return
 
that's just how nrs balancing goes and unfortunately for johnny cage mains; you were on the wrong side. you ask for some reasonable and they give you something questionable with minimal effort. i didn't even johnny cage was that crazy. honestly felt like he was one of the most well rounded characters in the game that actually played footsies. he definitely should've had his whiffing issues fixed a long time ago and +6 with pushback just to be nerfed seems unreasonable