Johnny Cage Comprehensive Change Wishlist

[Chernyy Volk]

This character is a really toxic design that I think really needs to be changed. Plus frames on demand on top of a top 5 fireball on an excellent footsie kit should not be on the same character.

Universal:

1: 124 is now fully duckable on the final hit, forcing Johnny to have to do 121 to condition.

2: 34U3 is now fully duckable on the final hit, forcing Johnny to have to do 34D3 to condition.

3: 121 no longer launches on the final hit, is now a fully grounded hit stun state, is -7 on block and +3 on hit.

4: 34D3 is now +12 on hit, -7 on block and the opponent is much closer to you for pressure

5: Regular forceball (BF2) now has 50 whiff recovery, MB has 40. This character should not have an oppressive space controlling fireball that locks you down.

6: Amplified Nut Punch (BD3) KB is changed. Now triggers if Johnny cancels into it out of a string from a J1 or a J2 (so, J2121~BD3(A!) would trigger it). Rewards him for a jumping projectile read or a wakeup read. Depth, decision making, footsies, neutral.

Shock Jock:

1: Mime Time KB condition is changed, now triggers if it parries a wakeup attack. If Liu can have it, Johnny should have it.

2: Cage Rage (DB4) is always a mid but now flawless blockable out of any string.

Showstopper:

1: Amplified Say Cheese (BD3) KB condition changed. Now triggers anytime within a combo as long as the Throwing Shade (DD2) KB has occurred. Essentially, we're just making this variation all about the wombo combo.

Outtake:

1: Amplified Rising Star (DB3) is now flawless blockable into -12.

2: Rising Star (DB3) is returned to it's pre-competitive state, recovery is decreased so he can get meterless corner combos.

LMK what you guys think about these ideas

 

[DrFolmer]

So Shock Jock has consistently been placed in bottom 10 throughout the game - and you wanna take away his 'pressure'? I mean I get Outtake is cancer, and that shit needs to get hit hard, but his buttons havent been changed at all since release - what skyrocketed him was a few special move changes.

121 is not a launcher by the way. It can be canceled into . In fact I would much rather have the string leaving them standing lul.

They should just tone down Outtake and give it the Cassie treatment - end of story.

Lets say we go along with those changes you listed on his normals - what about his whiffing issues on half the cast? This is literally just giving your opponents to mash more than they already do.

121 being just +3? What is this? You cant even d4 some characters due to low crushing properties should they contest the frames (eg. Jacqui and Jax f3). If this should be implemented, he needs to be in range for a d1 to have a means of checking ALL characters. But that creates another problem, decreased distance means no shimmy setups - which is all this character is about.

Finally, it's the plus frames that make his lack of a fast mid totally negligible. You, as the player blocking 124, have options. While Johnny has more options that give him rewards, you can most certainly still blow him up on a right guess, and that's the essence of his plusframes. You can walk back, backdash, neutral duck, jab starter combo, teleport (assuming you play such a character), low poke etc should he do an immediate f3/f4. This narrative that it's mk9 Johnny frames on demand is getting old. The options are very limited in the corner, but this is every character in a nutshell. Geras is cancer in the corner, Sonya is cancer, Skarlet is cancer etc.

I really urge you to play Shock Jock. You claiming 121 being a launcher just goes to show that you have spent no time with the character. A move isnt a launcher simply because the opponent gets sent through the air in animation. You need to be able to do conversions after the final hit.

If any of this shit should be applied, he needs ALL whiffing fixed

And why doesnt your changelist include nerfs to Low Forceballs LOL. You literally want to KEEP the most OBNOXIOUS aspect of Cage atm and nerf his base kit. WUT. I hope this was an oversight

 

[M.D.]

Why does nobody mention the whiffing of 1 and 2 on half the cast?

Liu kang whiffed a string on Cage only and the entire community went batshit insane until they fixed it.

Cage whiffs HALF his toolset on HALF the roster and LITERALLY nobody mentions it, wtf is this kafka crap

 

[mrapchem]

The majority of changes on this list are as bad as Johnny's Day 1 Krushing Blows.

 

[Braindead]

All your threads are bad but this is particularly funny

6: Amplified Nut Punch (BD3) KB is changed. Now triggers if Johnny cancels into it out of a string from a J1 or a J2 (so, J2121~BD3(A!) would trigger it). Rewards him for a jumping projectile read or a wakeup read. Depth, decision making, footsies, neutral.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Reading both the Scorpion and Johnny changes back to back really puts it in perspective lol

 

[M2Dave]

So how much are you going to charge us to stop you from creating these terrible threads and the suggestions in them?

 

[Chernyy Volk]

So Shock Jock has consistently been placed in bottom 10 throughout the game - and you wanna take away his 'pressure'? I mean I get Outtake is cancer, and that shit needs to get hit hard, but his buttons havent been changed at all since release - what skyrocketed him was a few special move changes.

121 is not a launcher by the way. It can be canceled into . In fact I would much rather have the string leaving them standing lul.

They should just tone down Outtake and give it the Cassie treatment - end of story.

Lets say we go along with those changes you listed on his normals - what about his whiffing issues on half the cast? This is literally just giving your opponents to mash more than they already do.

121 being just +3? What is this? You cant even d4 some characters due to low crushing properties should they contest the frames (eg. Jacqui and Jax f3). If this should be implemented, he needs to be in range for a d1 to have a means of checking ALL characters. But that creates another problem, decreased distance means no shimmy setups - which is all this character is about.

Finally, it's the plus frames that make his lack of a fast mid totally negligible. You, as the player blocking 124, have options. While Johnny has more options that give him rewards, you can most certainly still blow him up on a right guess, and that's the essence of his plusframes. You can walk back, backdash, neutral duck, jab starter combo, teleport (assuming you play such a character), low poke etc should he do an immediate f3/f4. This narrative that it's mk9 Johnny frames on demand is getting old. The options are very limited in the corner, but this is every character in a nutshell. Geras is cancer in the corner, Sonya is cancer, Skarlet is cancer etc.

I really urge you to play Shock Jock. You claiming 121 being a launcher just goes to show that you have spent no time with the character. A move isnt a launcher simply because the opponent gets sent through the air in animation. You need to be able to do conversions after the final hit.

If any of this shit should be applied, he needs ALL whiffing fixed

And why doesnt your changelist include nerfs to Low Forceballs LOL. You literally want to KEEP the most OBNOXIOUS aspect of Cage atm and nerf his base kit. WUT. I hope this was an oversight

Character is universally considered top 1 but you're acting like he's a cripple what is this lol

"So Shock Jock has consistently been placed in bottom 10 throughout the game - and you wanna take away his 'pressure'? I mean I get Outtake is cancer, and that shit needs to get hit hard, but his buttons havent been changed at all since release - what skyrocketed him was a few special move changes."

Shock Jock cannot be bottom 10 just by virtue of it being Johnny with Johnny things. I get it it doesn't have a place but I gave suggestions to make it SLIGHTLY better.

"
121 is not a launcher by the way. It can be canceled into . In fact I would much rather have the string leaving them standing lul."

I think you're just being pedantic. It literally launches, I know you can't combo off of it.

"Lets say we go along with those changes you listed on his normals - what about his whiffing issues on half the cast? This is literally just giving your opponents to mash more than they already do."

I haven't seen a single top Johnny Cage player complain about whiffing issues nor have I ever seen one deal with them. Sounds like propaganda. All the top players say he's top 1 for sure. Of course if he has any of those they should be fixed.

"121 being just +3? What is this? You cant even d4 some characters due to low crushing properties should they contest the frames (eg. Jacqui and Jax f3). If this should be implemented, he needs to be in range for a d1 to have a means of checking ALL characters. But that creates another problem, decreased distance means no shimmy setups - which is all this character is about."

Oh man so you're telling me Johnny would have a... drawback? He'd actually have to accept a less ideal situation than just a free +6? Man playing fighting games is tough. Also no such thing happens in this game. Johnny would be able to D1 those characters consistently. Also yes of course it's assumed you'd be in D1 range, no he should not be able to shimmy you off of this.

"Finally, it's the plus frames that make his lack of a fast mid totally negligible. you can most certainly still blow him up on a right guesYou, as the player blocking 124, have options. While Johnny has more options that give him rewards,s, and that's the essence of his plusframes. You can walk back, backdash, neutral duck, jab starter combo, teleport (assuming you play such a character), low poke etc should he do an immediate f3/f4. This narrative that it's mk9 Johnny frames on demand is getting old. The options are very limited in the corner, but this is every character in a nutshell. Geras is cancer in the corner, Sonya is cancer, Skarlet is cancer etc."

So this statement is the problem although there's a lot of problematic statements in here.

"Finally, it's the plus frames that make his lack of a fast mid totally negligible."

His lack of a fast mid isn't supposed to be negligible or it shouldn't be anyway. That's the point. More character archetyping, definitive weaknesses etc.

I don't care that you can blow Johnny up out of the plus frames this is a matter of risk/reward and adding more defensive depth to the game. In literally any other fighting game he'd have to fight for the right to ever put you on the back foot. 124 and 34U3 are too accessible with no counterplay and most characters have ABYSMAL options for contesting Johnny that are weighted against them except maybe a one time D2 KB on F3. This character completely locks you down in the corner and never lets you have a turn. Yes, Geras is cancer in the corner and Sonya is too and they should get hit too but Johnny is definitely a top 5 problem and a good example of the kind of gameplay that people dislike about this game. He should have to EARN those plus frames. Most other characters have to condition you to get to there. I'm sorry that I'm actually asking people to have to think.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

So how much are you going to charge us to stop you from creating these terrible threads and the suggestions in them?

Dave if you ever tried to debate balancing ideas on REO's podcast with me you'd lose. You're a straight simpleton for the fact you legit compared Tekken throw techs to MK11's.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I don't get the "oppression" claims at all.
Geras' f212 is -3 and that string is more oppressive.
Also wym risk/reward? If he whiffs anything he's dead, you get a free whiff punish, which is highly rewarded in this game. f344, f4 and b3 are all horrible on whiff, including the full strings.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I don't get the "oppression" claims at all.
Geras' f212 is -3 and that string is more oppressive.
Also wym risk/reward? If he whiffs anything he's dead, you get a free whiff punish, which is highly rewarded in this game. f344, f4 and b3 are all horrible on whiff, including the full strings.

"This other broke character has this" is not an argument. I know that, Geras should absolutely get nerfed and gutted even. We're talking about Johnny.

"Also wym risk/reward? If he whiffs anything he's dead, you get a free whiff punish, which is highly rewarded in this game. f344, f4 and b3 are all horrible on whiff, including the full strings."

So... he has to play neutral and footsies and maybe risk getting punished for that? What he's designed for? Man that's tough.

Also how many times in tournament do you see Johnny getting whiff punished? Dash cancelling makes that very hard to do with Johnny.

 

[thlityoursloat]

"This other broke character has this" is not an argument. I know that, Geras should absolutely get nerfed and gutted even. We're talking about Johnny.

"Also wym risk/reward? If he whiffs anything he's dead, you get a free whiff punish, which is highly rewarded in this game. f344, f4 and b3 are all horrible on whiff, including the full strings."

So... he has to play neutral and footsies and maybe risk getting punished for that? What he's designed for? Man that's tough.

Also how many times in tournament do you see Johnny getting whiff punished? Dash cancelling makes that very hard to do with Johnny.

That's what I'm saying.
His + strings aren't oppressive.. they push you back and reset the neutral, the counterplay is there. If he's dash cancelling then he's already adding more startup frames to his already slow buttons.
In tournament? Idk. Outtake was the most commonly used vari, which made it so much easier to just walk back and avoid taking risks, but his other variations don't have that luxury.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

That's what I'm saying.
His + strings aren't oppressive.. they push you back and reset the neutral, the counterplay is there. If he's dash cancelling then he's already adding more startup frames to his already slow buttons.
In tournament? Idk. Outtake was the most commonly used vari, which made it so much easier to just walk back and avoid taking risks, but his other variations don't have that luxury.

His + strings are very oppressive. He's putting you on the back foot for free. He should have to condition you into that. I think it's weird that people think this situation is somehow in the opponents favor or that their options are good if they're rolling the dice on the situation. You either do a low poke or a D2 on a read of F3 or you're getting B34'd into high damage either of which are hit confirmable into more plus frames if they get blocked. You can't jump, you can't backdash, most characters have to wild out with a D2 or they have to do a microduck (opens you up to b34).

In Tournament people are using Outtake and Showstopper for the MU's where Outtake can't zone people out, as of right now between those two variations my understanding is tournament level players thinks he might beat every character in the game between those two.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

Just nerf Outtake and that's it. No one said anything about Johnny's base kit for the longest time. Just slow down the fireballs and do to Rising Star what was done to Cassie's Glow Kick. Nerfing JC's base kit would be unfair and unreasonable as he was given no buffs or changes over 2 patches. No reason to start making real changes now.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Just nerf Outtake and that's it. No one said anything about Johnny's base kit for the longest time. Just slow down the fireballs and do to Rising Star what was done to Cassie's Glow Kick. Nerfing JC's base kit would be unfair and unreasonable as he was given no buffs or changes over 2 patches. No reason to start making real changes now.

Because he doesn't need any buffs or changes because he's top 5 in an oppressive toxic way.

 

[DrFolmer]

Shock Jock cannot be bottom 10 just by virtue of it being Johnny with Johnny things. I get it it doesn't have a place but I gave suggestions to make it SLIGHTLY better.

So every pro player who made tier lists up until the point Outtake was released were deadass wrong and had no clue about the game - is that what you're saying? To be fair I do recall you very early on complaining about his forceballs being plus 6, so I'll give you credit for being consistent on your opinion.

I haven't seen a single top Johnny Cage player complain about whiffing issues nor have I ever seen one deal with them

Because, when you sit next to your opponent, complaining doesnt do shit. Thats why you saw Sonic switch to Jade after Dragon steamrolled Cage with his Kitana - if the character in fact didnt have weaknesses, this wouldnt be the case. Some of the prominent lab rats in MK11 who were initially on the top1 train placed him outside of top 5 a few weeks ago. Johnny in Outtake does incredibly well against the top tiers atm, but can actually struggle against other character as Dragon proved to us.

I don't care that you can blow Johnny up out of the plus frames this is a matter of risk/reward and adding more defensive depth to the game

What does this even mean. You don't care that his plus frames is his way of forcing mind games as opposed to traditional 50/50's? You may not care, but there's plenty counter play to his plus frames. His plus frames dont guarantee anything, that's the balance of it. If you read b34 you jump in and full combo his ass, if you read f3 you duck and punish, if he f4's you jab/low poke him out of it (beats both options). The plus 6 situation already has depth, idk what more you want. It's not like you're helpless

And what's your beef with plus 6 anyway when you're the guy who advocated that Scorpion's 212 should have it's gap removed LOL.

And why is whiffing a big deal? Because his amazingly strong stagger mind game built into s1 and s2 into auto shimmy and hit confirmable 244 shouldnt be a thing on female characters. if you let a dude whiff 3 s2's in your face without blowing him up, then you lose because of inexperience. Outtake is the real problem here, he should not have an insane projectile with such a good fundamental kit and safe poke into special mind games. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Outtake has no inherent weakness - you insinuating that Shock Jock has no weakness is just yeaaaaaaa nope. And yeah then there was my "problematic statement" that wasnt specified in anyway lul

 

[M.D.]

I haven't seen a single top Johnny Cage player complain about whiffing issues nor have I ever seen one deal with them. Sounds like propaganda. All the top players say he's top 1 for sure. Of course if he has any of those they should be fixed.

That's because they are all idiots. They all play against males in all grand finals, lose HORRIBLY to kitana/jacqui/femalehitboxrandompick then move on to geras or other chars, and literally nobody comments on the whiffing issues.

That's also the reason why NRS will NOT fix them, because all the people who "matter" for NRS do not talk about them.

But it's ok, after they nerf all the tools that take the spotlight (rising shoulder, glasses kb, plus frames on 124) they will see it and drop the character.

I can't wait NRS to make 124 0 on block and the only way to get +6 to be the amplified forceball which whiffs on 12 chars. I can't wait to see them complain then, when they get vaporized by females. But they don't care, they just move on to LiuKang or other crap.

Kombat already plays Geras non stop vs females, Sonic plays the entire cast so he doesn't care, and Kompetitor will move on to another char soon enough.

I know i'm a random nobody so there's no reason for you to watch this but if you get bored on the crapper sometime this is what i'm talking about:

 

[Mikemetroid]

Yikes cherny vs MD. What a matchup

 

[DeftMonk]

When I read this I am pretty confused bro. #1 the changes to his normals just seem to make him a more potato 1 dimensional character . Johnny has lots of utility from his strings but what your saying would mean we go back to f4 liu with fools spamming 121 if they get blocked fuck it mb fb if not, eat it for 26% into restand. once ur scared of that shit auto shimmy same string. #2 you want to nerf caged rage and buff ex camera? hella confused here. #3 the thing u want to nerf about outtake is not his projectiles its his ex rising star being flawless blockable into meterless get fucked punishes? I honestly love playing cage I would rather more characters have his multitude of tools and useful strings rather than turning him into another 1 trick pony with a wambo combo a monkey could do for 50% unbreakable.

 

[Art Lean]

I'm too old to ever be a pro player, I don't have the skill or patience, I play for story and as a reward, the costumes/gear/rewards, silly i know... but hey, that's me so you'll only get aesthetic discussions from my end.

So that said, following on from his recent tux outfit, really wish we'd get a 'business casual' skin like Linden Ashby wore in the movie. Nothing too over the top, nothing too aerobic, nothing too cheesy, just cool attire that recalls the 95 movie for some "just rolled in off the set, let's dance" smart casual beat-downs. Loved his MK9 look and wish we had something closer to that. But considering we've got MK Movie Shang Tsung, would utterly love an MK Movie Johnny, since he was basically the second best thing about it.

Oh and an option to remove the sunglasses would be great.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yikes cherny vs MD. What a matchup

Honestly what’s so bad about MD? He’s stated Cage is top tier multiple times

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

Well we just got a patch. Not really even a balance patch, Raiden got slight buffs to his 3rd variation but Johnny Cage remained untouched. Do with that information what you will

 

[Malec]

Can we PLZ have an input change for pissed off? I would be fine with f,d,b1.