Issue: Starfire's punishes are extremely inconsistent.

[DarksydeDash]

Starfire is a character who has an 8 and 11 frame high and an 11 frame mid

Her 11 frame mid has extremely poor range and is the only thing that combos into her main launcher of DB1 MB next to her standing 3 which is a 15 frame mid.

She also has a 9 frame reversal in db3 but has hitbox more directed for anti airing.

The purpose of this thread is bring to attention some issues when punishing with Starfire. That being said, if you have no interest of taking this issue seriously, I ask you to leave the thread.


THE ISSUE:
Starfire's lack of a proper mid severely hurts her damage from punishing the opponent. As mentioned before, she has only two things that properly link into her main launcher. So in order to punish her opponent harder for doing something unsafe on block, she is required to spend 2 bars for a bounce cancel which is already expensive enough as it is. The problem here is that the opponent is going to be able to block the start of the string most of the time. Her biggest issue, however, is special moves (or strings), that have some kind of of pushback or "bounce effect" where the opponent ducks their head down and ends up low profiling her 8 or 11 frame high, while also staying completely out of range of her 11 frame mid as a result. This is a serious issue because this allows the majority of the cast to abuse anything with pushback with little to no fear since the most they will take is 11-19% or about 45% should the Starfire player commit to a bounce cancel. While this sounds fine, the MB F3 will not connect at max distance and the MB B3 will sometimes completely whiff or launch the opponent to far for a followup.

Examples of special moves (excluding strings) that create whiffing issues for Starfire (basically safe):

- MB Catdash from Catwoman

• End of block animation ducks her s1
• only -11 on block so mid are not an option.
• Must be punished by d1 into a special, d1 into BGB does not work. 11-19%

- Flash's RMS 1

• Giant pushback after the headbutt, more pushback the farther it's done from.
• S1 whiffs, s2 and d1 out of range
• S3 connects but any followup special move whiffs.. LOL
• Must be punished with F2xxdb34 or F21+3 for 11-19% (Horrible damage)
• Bounce Cancel off F2 will randomly whiff

- Red Hood's Lethal Lunge Forward

• db3, s1, s2 are out of range and d1 randomly whiffs
• S3 connects but specials whiff.. LOL
• F2 into bounce cancel whiffs (bye bye 2 bars lmao)

-Supergirl's REGUALAR breath

• Out of range of everything except F2 at max range
• F2 punish is extremely tight, does low damage, and bounce cancel randomly whiffs.

-Blue Beetle's Mandible Strike (BF3 with blades)

• 100% safe on block when done anywhere from midscreen to outside of midscreen.
• Everything except F2 whiffs when spaced but in punishable distance.
• F2 punish is a guessing game due to distance
• When landed, F2 punish does poor damage and Bounce cancel can randomly whiff

- Firestorm's Fusion Charge (BF3)

• S3 can punish it while blocking standing, not while crouching
• 1, 2, d1, db3, all whiff when not done point blank
• F2 punishes but for low damage and bounce cancel randomly whiffs.

-Black Adam's REGULAR air far boot stomp

• IA version makes all options except F2 and d1 whiff completely
• This move's frame data is extremely inconsistent on block based on distance so d1 and F2 can whiff randomly
• F2 into bounce cancel consistently whiffs when trying to punish
• Throwing is best and most consistent "punish" option for 11% ...yay?
• S2 can sometimes punish

Her issues with her normals whiffing or being out of range hinders her damage for capitalizing on her opponent's mistakes when nearly entire cast can easily punish much harder than her and do it consistently. On top of this, the Starfire player has to actually GUESS if something like a bounce cancel will connect or not when no other character has to, while also just lacking a consistent punish in general. This is large weakness that can easily be exploited for little to no risk and should be looked at in future patches.

 

[Pan1cMode]

It is super frustrating I know.

They could remedy this by adding slightly more cancel advantage to 23, f2 and s3 so that punishes are at least consistent.

If s3 were 12-13 frames this would also fix most of these issues, albeit at the risk of giving her a fast-ish, far reaching mid when she already has f2.

Personally, I’d rather they buff her in other ways;
- s2 9 frames
- 232 +1 on block
- db2(mb) 0 on block


I’m honestly ok with her not having the best mids and truthfully, she’s definitely not the worst character in the cast. I like where she sits at the moment but these problems can be frustrating and just something you have to learn to deal with.

If NRS is going to keep the top tier as is though, starfire needs something to compete at that level.

 

[South]

Here my input I don't use starfire nor do I play against her a lot!
But maybe they could reverse her D1xxOrb nerf since she lacks solid punishes? But in turn adjust the combos she can do for less damage to compensate? Would that work..?
If not that maybe make her s3 a 12f mid and fix whiffing issues ?

 

[Pan1cMode]

Here my input I don't use starfire nor do I play against her a lot!
But maybe they could reverse her D1xxOrb nerf since she lacks solid punishes? But in turn adjust the combos she can do for less damage to compensate? Would that work..?
If not that maybe make her s3 a 12f mid and fix whiffing issues ?

Honestly her damage isn’t stellar as it is.

I’d rather they not reverse the d1 change if it means a further damage nerf. They’ve already gutted her damage as is.

 

[IrishMantis]

I feel the annoyance

Given her a mid would prob be too good (I know you're not suggesting that)

I think increasing range to where it connects in the moves that you mention is a plus sable idea since they have done something similiar in the past

 

[GLoRToR]

She overall needs better normals or better zoning. Right now she's in the region where she seems like she was intended to be a bit of both but she's really neither. I'd propose the normals since we already have enough zoners. Her zoning is okay, she gets by, but she needs something to get up there.

 

[NeroOps]

A lot of chars in the game suffer from a bad startup mids but are safe on block or they have gaps in the bnbs that start off with a decent mid like grodds. Starfire isn’t going to get any better you just have to put in work with what she has sorry to say because I wouldn’t mind her gaining buffs.

 

[Vengeance135]

@DarksydeDash Bruh why are you complaining? She's fine the way she is...









Lol jk I had to, on a serious note though, I don't use her but I've encounter some of the same issues using joker trying to punish these moves. I personally think if the move is negative (like divekick, mandible charge, lunge, regular breath, fusion charge etc.), they shouldnt have so much push back. Example mandible charge is like -14 I think and yet the only way joker can punish it is with a d2 because of its pushback.

Supergirls regular breath as a multi-hit special is a load of crap in my opinion because they literally get time to see if it will hit. If their opponent blocks all the hits... BOOM mb the breath and they are safe. Some of the frame data in this game astounds me.

 

[PetulantWaste]

I honestly think that this is what NRS intended for these characters. Forward advancing strings, especially fast ones, are meant to be powerful tools that not every character has access to.

Lots of characters have this problem- Darkseid can't punish this stuff, neither can Cyborg, neither can Joker or Bane. Basically characters with terrible neutral game aren't supposed to be able to do this stuff either because of their stubby normals or slow mids.

Want someone with good neutral who can punish unsafe stuff for decent damage? Play someone who's good at those things.

Playing Joker and having to dash up while my opponent is -1 to whatever because I literally have no moves that can hit them sucks but for whatever reason that's what they wanted.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I honestly think that this is what NRS intended for these characters. Forward advancing strings, especially fast ones, are meant to be powerful tools that not every character has access to.

Lots of characters have this problem- Darkseid can't punish this stuff, neither can Cyborg, neither can Joker or Bane. Basically characters with terrible neutral game aren't supposed to be able to do this stuff either because of their stubby normals or slow mids.

Want someone with good neutral who can punish unsafe stuff for decent damage? Play someone who's good at those things.

Playing Joker and having to dash up while my opponent is -1 to whatever because I literally have no moves that can hit them sucks but for whatever reason that's what they wanted.

First off, it's not that fact that I can't punish them, it's the fact when I do you is them, I have to literally bet my meter ON HIT in hopes my special moves or bounce main bounce cancel will not randomly whiff.

Secondly, this post has nothing to do with neutral or damage, this has to do with her horrible startup and hitboxes on her normals.

Lastly, Cyborg's F2 D1, and B1 easily punishes all of these things and leads to his power fist (DB2 MB) for good damage. Darkseid is the exception because his damage is insane and the moment he takes to the air, you have to guess between a jump normal or stomp but he doesn't even need to jump because he has a reversal low laser that punishes all of these CONSISTENCY.

Again, that is the issue here, because normals connecting on hit and then having specials whiff.. ON. HIT. Is ttoottallyy by design.

 

[Darth Mao]

Please, lab.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Please, lab.

Please read.

I said this is a problem at a distance and all of those examples are in match starting distance and not max distance at all. I also listed examples of punishing each of these said specials.

Nor did you show you can't land B3 after a d2xx MB db. That's horrible damage for a bar since the most consistent thing you can do is f2xx db3,4 after an airborne orb. You're better off doing f2xx bf2 MB, 4.

SMH.

 

[Tweedy]

Please, lab.

I think he meant fullscreen with Catwoman's dash and Flash's charge. Also d2 punishes are awful.

 

[Tweedy]

Maybe Starfire's biggest issue is a lot of the time you're getting really bad damage. Her d1, 113 and f2 all do such awful damage unless you bounce cancel s1 or f2, but f2 will whiff a lot like you said.

Would be great if she could do d1 mb orb but

I remember day 1 of the patch people would post like s2/s3 combos or mb b3s, and be like "look damage still good u guise", but most of her practical hits will net you some of the lowest damage in the game. For the record I said most because s2 and mb b3 do land quite a bit.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Maybe Starfire's biggest issue is a lot of the time you're getting really bad damage. Her d1, 113 and f2 all do such awful damage unless you bounce cancel s1 or f2, but f2 will whiff a lot like you said.

Would be great if she could do d1 mb orb but

I remember day 1 of the patch people would post like s2/s3 combos or mb b3s, and be like "look damage still good u guise", but most of her practical hits will net you some of the lowest damage in the game. For the record I said most because s2 and mb b3 do land quite a bit.

Thank you, Tweedy.

I'm honestly glad I'm not the only one thinking this right now. I miss d1 orb

Also great showing at Winter Clash.

 

[GLoRToR]

Why doesn't D1 DB1 MB work?

 

[Pan1cMode]

Why doesn't D1 DB1 MB work?

Because they nerfed it.

They decided it was too strong a tool for her to get a full combo off her d1. I mean, it’s not like any other character gets a full combo off their d1.

Only:
- Aquaman
- Attocitous
- Black Adam
- Black Canary
- Blue Beetle
- Cyborg
- Dr. Fate
- Firestorm
- Flash
- Green Lantern
- Green Arrow
- Harley
- Robin
- Supergirl
- Superman
- Scarecrow
- Wonderwoman
- Raiden
- Braniac (BGB)
- Grodd (BGB)


I mean it would be OP if starfire could too.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Now while I agree with the fact that the defensive character should have her punishes back to factory conditions (D1 comboing with Orb.) I think the bigger issue is a lot of the stuff you mentioned is tough for a LOT of characters to punish due to weird pushback and whatnot. I think yes this is an issue she suffers from, I also think it's an issue at a larger scale. A lot of characters cant punish some of this stuff effectively.

 

[Espio]

Because they nerfed it.

They decided it was too strong a tool for her to get a full combo off her d1. I mean, it’s not like any other character gets a full combo off their d1.

Only:
- Aquaman
- Attocitous
- Black Adam
- Black Canary
- Blue Beetle
- Cyborg
- Dr. Fate
- Firestorm
- Flash
- Green Lantern
- Green Arrow
- Harley
- Robin
- Supergirl
- Superman
- Scarecrow
- Wonderwoman
- Raiden
- Braniac (BGB)
- Grodd (BGB)


I mean it would be OP if starfire could too.

She gets over 200 damage for a bar off of her down 1 combos with down 1, weave flip into MB trait or down 1, shooting star, trait MB.

It's definitely there, just not as good. 200 might not seem like a lot but it definitely adds up very quickly.

 

[Tweedy]

I'm pretty sure panicmode was being sarcastic but anyways.

I think it was pretty fair that she could launch off of her d1 with an unsafe mb move. Especially considering it doesn't go for as much as it did before, her 113/f2 damage without a bounce cancel will still be bad, etc.

 

[Tweedy]

She gets over 200 damage for a bar off of her down 1 combos with down 1, weave flip into MB trait or down 1, shooting star, trait MB.

It's definitely there, just not as good. 200 might not seem like a lot but it definitely adds up very quickly.

If you're talking about d1 bf2, that doesn't always combo. If you're talking about d1 hair, dats what I do because it has a mind game on block.

NO MOVE IS CALLED WEAVE FLIP YOU BITCH

 

[Espio]

If you're talking about d1 bf2, that doesn't always combo. If you're talking about d1 hair, dats what I do because it has a mind game on block.

NO MOVE IS CALLED WEAVE FLIP YOU BITCH

Listen up butter cup, it's called weave flip. Either get on board or get out the way ho.

I do weave flip into trait and down 1, shooting star also combos.

Down 1 weave charge I don't use for if I'm necessarily trying to combo, I use that if I'm trying to bait counter pokes.

 

[Tweedy]

Listen up butter cup, it's called weave flip. Either get on board or get out the way ho.

I do weave flip into trait and down 1, shooting star also combos.

Down 1 weave charge I don't use for if I'm necessarily trying to combo, I use that if I'm trying to bait counter pokes.

D1 bf2 does da most damage but like I said sometimes it doesn't combo.

 

[Espio]

D1 bf2 does da most damage but like I said sometimes it doesn't combo.

Right, but I wasn't talking about using back, forward 2 in my original post ;__;.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Now while I agree with the fact that the defensive character should have her punishes back to factory conditions (D1 comboing with Orb.) I think the bigger issue is a lot of the stuff you mentioned is tough for a LOT of characters to punish due to weird pushback and whatnot. I think yes this is an issue she suffers from, I also think it's an issue at a larger scale. A lot of characters cant punish some of this stuff effectively.

The only character that stood out to me for being in the same situation is Joker, any of others you can suggest? Most the entire cast has really fast advancing mids that punish these things with easy or get a full bnb off a d1.