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Guide - Cyber Sub-Zero Is Your Fridge Running? Cyber Sub-Zero Guide

xxFalcon Loverxx

Ignorant slaves, how quickly you forget.
I don't see how he lacks neutral when he has f2, look at that range, look how much space that controls, look how fast it is, I don't care if it is a high, that is a DAMN good normal not to mention you can catch people neutral ducking with f3. Good day sir.
F3 is the most useless thing on the fucking planet, in my eyes LOL.


Do you mean f4 or something?
 

xxFalcon Loverxx

Ignorant slaves, how quickly you forget.
F3 is great for low profiling projectiles, as well as catching neutral ducking opponents. And it's safer than slide on block.
I believe you're talking about f4, right? Because f3 is unsafe, and it's 17 frames.

If you're talking about f4, then yeah, it's pretty useful.
Sorry if i'm being a little bit confusing here lol.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
@MrProfDrPepper its not an opinion that his neutral is lacking, it's fact. He has some good normals, but most of them are outclassed by crouching... Which every character can do.

While f34 is safe, it puts CSZ at great risk due to its low push back and terrible whiff recovery. This is true with f2 when neutral ducked, pretty rough on whiff.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
@MrProfDrPepper its not an opinion that his neutral is lacking, it's fact. He has some good normals, but most of them are outclassed by crouching... Which every character can do.

While f34 is safe, it puts CSZ at great risk due to its low push back and terrible whiff recovery. This is true with f2 when neutral ducked, pretty rough on whiff.
How is it fact when there is ways to make them respect your f2? You can't just be like "it us fact because I say so" even though it is clear that it is up for debate. His neutral is fast from lacking in my opinion, he has ways of forcing you to respect his f2, since it is so fast and reaches so far. Hell it isn't a half bad anti air from jump in distance. His f34 he good for making the opponent respect it. His low bombs, his f13, run up b3, there are plenty of ways to exceed at neutral with this character, you just have to think outside the box, just because his f2 is a high doesn't mean it should be discounted.
 

marietta1200

Best Coast
Premium Supporter
How is it fact when there is ways to make them respect your f2? You can't just be like "it us fact because I say so" even though it is clear that it is up for debate. His neutral is fast from lacking in my opinion, he has ways of forcing you to respect his f2, since it is so fast and reaches so far. Hell it isn't a half bad anti air from jump in distance. His f34 he good for making the opponent respect it. His low bombs, his f13, run up b3, there are plenty of ways to exceed at neutral with this character, you just have to think outside the box, just because his f2 is a high doesn't mean it should be discounted.
Man I respect both @MrProfDrPepper and @RM Ree a heck of a lot, but--prepare to have your minds blown!--you're both right. In a broader sense his neutral has good potential given the toolset and conditioning, but in that more traditional forward-advancing/mids-for-days/good pokes 'sense' it is pretty weak. At my level he's great to play because I'm not gonna face a lot of top players aside from the occasional EGP weekly, so f2, f3, f1/3/1 and the more vague "setup" possibilities are great, but when you watch Foxy's Mileena against Madsen... well that's a whole other ball of wax. @MrProfDrPepper plays a mean Lasher and so is already kind of a contrarian with his style of play (laming, frustrating... nontraditional etc etc), so it sounds like you're just having different conversations, basically.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
How is it fact when there is ways to make them respect your f2? You can't just be like "it us fact because I say so" even though it is clear that it is up for debate. His neutral is fast from lacking in my opinion, he has ways of forcing you to respect his f2, since it is so fast and reaches so far. Hell it isn't a half bad anti air from jump in distance. His f34 he good for making the opponent respect it. His low bombs, his f13, run up b3, there are plenty of ways to exceed at neutral with this character, you just have to think outside the box, just because his f2 is a high doesn't mean it should be discounted.
Lol please relax yung Dr, it's not fact because I say so. It's fact because the vast majority of experienced players agree on it, along with the players who actually main the character. I guess that's more theory, isn't it?

I don't think anyone means his neutral as a whole is terrible, but agree that its "lacking," in that he has one conventional mid that has high risk associated with it, while other kast members have plenty of safer mid hitting options. I do think, however that his "close" neutral is bad, which is where a lot of his neutral options end up putting him.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
Lol please relax yung Dr, it's not fact because I say so. It's fact because the vast majority of experienced players agree on it, along with the players who actually main the character. I guess that's more theory, isn't it?

I don't think anyone means his neutral as a whole is terrible, but agree that its "lacking," in that he has one conventional mid that has high risk associated with it, while other kast members have plenty of safer mid hitting options. I do think, however that his "close" neutral is bad, which is where a lot of his neutral options end up putting him.
Sorry about that, I just kind of tired of people under valuing the neutral game in mkx. So I get heated easily when it comes to neutral in mk
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
@MrProfDrPepper its not an opinion that his neutral is lacking, it's fact. He has some good normals, but most of them are outclassed by crouching... Which every character can do.

While f34 is safe, it puts CSZ at great risk due to its low push back and terrible whiff recovery. This is true with f2 when neutral ducked, pretty rough on whiff.
I gotta disagree I think his neutral is awesome and one of the best things about the character, you can't crouch everything only F2, F1 and Iceball, and this is complimented well by iADK, B1, F4, and bomb set-ups. I'll glady take F2 being a high as a opposed to it being as slow as it would be if it was a mid (see Alien, Kung Jin, Mournful and Dragon Nagi). His poke game isn't amazing but it really isn't that bad his D1 is similar to Lao's, and his D3 is dope just tiny range. But he isn't someone that just gets poked out of everything he tries to do in the neutral like Raiden does, CSZ got much more options especially with the cancellable backdash
 
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TamedLizard

Buff George
Trip guarding and blowing up pokes with B2 is orgasmic. And it's +2 on block when DE so you can continue stagger with 21, or go for a 50/50 or throw.

CSZ is so much damn fun. I'm so glad one of the Borgs finally clicked with me. And honestly? I pegged him as the least likely candidate upon release.

Also, who else uses dive kick as a conditioning tool? If I'm full screen, I'll sometimes do a short dive kick into another dive kick to fake out pokes. And once they start respecting that, after the first whiffed short dive kick, I'll go for a B3.
 
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RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
I gotta disagree I think his neutral is awesome and one of the best things about the character, you can't crouch everything only F2, F1 and Iceball, and this is complimented well by iADK, F4, and bomb set-ups. I'll glady take F2 being a high as a opposed to it being as slow as it would be if it was a mid (see Alien, Kung Jin, and Dragon Nagi). His poke game isn't amazing but it really isn't that bad his D1 is similar to Lao's, and his D3 is dope just tiny range. But he isn't someone that just gets poked out of everything he tries to do in the neutral like Raiden does, CSZ got much more options especially with the cancellable backdash
Really? I get poked out of pressure fairly often. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
pressure is not neutral
I'm familiar with neutral. Are you trying to be condescending?

Anyway, you start pressure from the neutral, which is where I get low profiled/ poked. Same goes for when I hit with a neutral block adv. attack.
 

Shaikhuzzaman

magicmeerkatman
I don't see how he lacks neutral when he has f2, look at that range, look how much space that controls, look how fast it is, I don't care if it is a high, that is a DAMN good normal not to mention you can catch people neutral ducking with f3. Good day sir.
F3 that - 20 move? Or perhaps F34 that - 10 move
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I'm familiar with neutral. Are you trying to be condescending?

Anyway, you start pressure from the neutral, which is where I get low profiled/ poked. Same goes for when I hit with a neutral block adv. attack.
huh? I'm not trying to be at all condescending, nothing i said was in any way condescending, i simply don't understand what you are saying.

we were talking strictly about his neutral, then you started talking about his pressure, which i never made any comment on

you also start combos from the nuetral as well, but thats not what we are talking about here. Once your pressure / combo / whatever starts, you are no longer in the neutral...
 

TamedLizard

Buff George
I get poked quite frequently too. Whether that's from mashers or experienced players.

But that's what B2, B3, and iADK are for. The B3D4U3 is also a great string for conditioning poke happy opponents. Or there's dive kick of course. I'm finding that a lot of people will expect a committed dive kick when you jump in, so a lot of times I'll ji2 and go for a 50/50.
 

TamedLizard

Buff George
Exactly, how is -20 and -10 safe? I think they're talking about f4 lol.
I said safer than slide. -10 is a helluva lot better than -22, don't ya think? Plus, it's got a wonky block stun. Yeah, you could be punished, but people won't be as prepared to punish that as they will be slide.

It's like Kobu's B1D2, Kotal's B32, or Black's B32D1. It's not essential to your play, but you use it sparingly to get your opponent to respect that it's there.
 
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RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
how is he fuzzy guard-able, b1 isnt that slow
It's a 7f difference between b3 and b1 I believe? Which is a fuzzy-able 50/50 in the sense that if you haven't blocked the low in what feels like an appropriate amount of time, simply switch to standing block. You have a forgiving window to recognize the situation and adjust. You're not reacting to the b1 OH, you're just roughly estimating when to switch from low to high block.

It's a common situation after say, a jump in punch. A player is likely to immediately to input the low or OH. They're likely to because otherwise, should the jip hit and you do not input a normal/ string quickly, you wouldn't get a combo.

People have mentioned ways around this earlier in the thread, everything has an exception. If you recognize the opponent is fuzzy guarding you can delay the low b3, or use b3d4 for the double low. You can even throw since the defending player is planning to block for at least 11f while throw starts up in 10.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
huh? I'm not trying to be at all condescending, nothing i said was in any way condescending, i simply don't understand what you are saying.

we were talking strictly about his neutral, then you started talking about his pressure, which i never made any comment on

you also start combos from the nuetral as well, but thats not what we are talking about here. Once your pressure / combo / whatever starts, you are no longer in the neutral...
If you don't understand my point of view, that's one thing, and it's fine, you don't have to. Although as author of the guide, I feel compelled to explain myself to those who have concerns. But implying that any self respecting player doesn't know what a basic concept like the neutral is? That's condescending, at least from my perspective. If it wasn't intended, no problem man.

Anyway, you can pressure an opponent while in the neutral simply by standing in the right position. Zoners apply pressure by simply existing at full screen, while grapplers apply it standing right next to you. The neutral and pressure, or any other act stemming straight from the neutral, while not strictly the same thing, are more often than not, talked about within the same breath. It's definition vs. application.

Cyber Sub-Zero is simply not as threatening as many other characters when in the close-neutral, and forced into uncomfortable positions at mid-neutral when met with crouching opponents.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
F3 that - 20 move? Or perhaps F34 that - 10 move
I think f34 is -20 and f3 is something less invasive like -10 or something. Even then that isn't that bad since he is also ducking during the opportunity to punish him so most high punishers will whiff