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Match-up Discussion Is Sub Zero the bane of Jax?

Enenra

Go to hell.
So I took online for a spin at my friend's house after a few weeks of break time, and I stumbled across 3 solid Jax players with records like 350/100, 600/200, 6300/2200 wins/losses. My Ermac, Scorpion, Rain etc were pretty even with them. I lost some and won some. Out of just spontaneity I picked Sub Zero after a few matches with the first Jax and walked all over him. Same story for the number two, although the third was a nice game.

So here is my question: Is Sub hard for Jax to deal with? Did I somehow get lucky 3 times? Am I just an above average Sub Zero? And mind you these were no CDjrs or Tyrants, but I'm no Denzel or Death.

My strategy was to simply bait out armored attacks and punish when they had meter, stay with in jump range but out of the basic string, and mix zoning and pressure depending on the meter. I played slow and safe, and when I got in I did few crossovers and mostly stuck to trying the 21 d3, 214 ice clone, throw type stuff. When I cornered them I eased up when they got a bar and tried to bait out an en move. When they started to get in a groove with zoning, I pressured, and vice versa.

Was I lucky? Is Sub Zero's space control when played smart and taking into account armor just better than Jax?
 

Creepy00

Noob
From my experiences,i will say it is even or at least 4.5 - 5.5 (jax 's favor) I actually had a chance to get this match down offline against Blackcula's Jax and it went way better with sub than what i did with cyblax. Iceclone is good tool to keep jax in check or pressure, as you can bait them to used their meter for armor. Sub d3 interrupts some of jax s strings and sub iceclone is even with jax aa 1. However. sub can have a hard time getting out of the corner. So, no you didnt got lucky, you used your tools better. As to space control, dont know.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
No. He has a small hit box and can basically sit back and ground pound cancel you into a mistake. You can't really pressure him. He can pressure you anywhere on the screen.

I think maybe you just caught someone ignorant to how to play SZ with Jax.
 

Enenra

Go to hell.
No. He has a small hit box and can basically sit back and ground pound cancel you into a mistake. You can't really pressure him. He can pressure you anywhere on the screen.

I think maybe you just caught someone ignorant to how to play SZ with Jax.
Three people though? I know Subbzy gets gang banged in a fit of irony if he gets cornered, but I was never cornered. I got a few of trades with ground pound off of freeze, and stayed out side of sweep/mid range for the B121 (throw/212) trade.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
The trading with freeze and ground pound is very key (imho). I still think the inability to pressure jax with d4 into 2,1 hurts, and his ability to basically lock you down with his f4 string is kind of a deal breaker. Online Jax's (90% there are plenty that know this matchup and to those guys, i apologize) tend to simply think they can rush down and use armored moves to win easily.

I applaud your wins though :).
 

Enenra

Go to hell.
Well thank you. Good to know. My mind was blown when I 3-0'd 3 good Jaxs after a 2-3 week break, and I just got out of the hospital yesterday. I guess I just went P Diddy on 'em and screwed their mind.
 

Enenra

Go to hell.
Try playing Habity or FOREVER KING's Jax with Sub-Zero. Different experience. lol.
tru dat :oops:
Like I said before, because of recent events, I don't feel up to my normal level of competition. I'm slow, tired, and can't give them a good challenge. There is no point lol. So these Jaxs felt like a good challenge.
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
sometimes when i play, ive been playing so long or im not paying full attention for some reason and i play the autopilot game. wha i mean to say is i just play a fundamental game without using the matchup advantage. this can really get you into trouble, some of the bottom 20 characters sure do suck for their reasons, but sometimes if i dont treat them as a real threat or if i dont consider their weakness and use it against them, before i know it they have 1 round and a life lead. if you always want to win, you must always think about every fight
 

LEGEND

YES!
Premium Supporter
i personally think its at least 6-4 in jax's favor. . . at least

but thats at the highest possible level
 

mekane

Noob
The trading with freeze and ground pound is very key (imho). I still think the inability to pressure jax with d4 into 2,1 hurts, and his ability to basically lock you down with his f4 string is kind of a deal breaker. Online Jax's (90% there are plenty that know this matchup and to those guys, i apologize) tend to simply think they can rush down and use armored moves to win easily.

I applaud your wins though :).
yeah i find it hard to time the ground pound against the freeze, and because of that, SZ is able to build meter against me more easily.... most of the time i have no meter because i use it for breakers. perhaps when you're cornered, consider saving meter for ex moves as jax.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Thing is.. you can cancel the ground pound into something else.... so if you do it first... you can at least cancel into a d3 and it will whiff. Or... cancel it into an exDash and get in on SZ ... where Jax rapes him.

I thought Ground Pound by itself actually ducked the ice ball.
 

PND OmegaK

Drunk and Orderly
Premium Supporter
Like lethal said, it's 6-4 Jax' favour at least. Jax can mix ground pounds and whiffed gotchas from full screen, so Sub is just a sitting duck while Jax builds meter and fucks with his head. Sub is then forced to enter a range where he doesn't compete as well with Jax, but you have to remember Sub still has a great footsies game too so it's not a cakewalk for my metal armed friend either.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
Having played the matchup a lot, I think it's 6-4 Sub-Zero's favour. You have to play the entire match from just outside your own d4 range and that's where you can eliminate the ground pound cancel stuff from the equation; you can slide Jax for free if he tries to get space to keep zoning you or if he ground pound cancels. D4 Jax's wakeup all day every day and when you step in to pressure him, be prepared to pepper him with d4 so you can set up f4, ice blast.

Low hitbox makes it difficult for Sub-Zero to pressure Jax but you really just need to have a solid poking and counterpoking game to deal with Jax; from the correct range, Jax can only hurt you with armoured attacks.
No. He has a small hit box and can basically sit back and ground pound cancel you into a mistake. You can't really pressure him. He can pressure you anywhere on the screen.

I think maybe you just caught someone ignorant to how to play SZ with Jax.

This is false. For every tool Jax has, you have a viable counter. Jax has shitty wakeup options because you can d4 all but one of them and the elbow smash is one of the moves you say: "please wake up with that" to. I am also pretty sure he has to use the ex elbow smash too in case you cancel the d4 into a clone which will beat the invincibility frames on regular smash.

Sub doesn't have to fear going into the air against Jax either because he can alter his jump with the clone. Jax cannot just cancel a ground pound and challenge you in the air as a result. A well-timed air clone will also avoid his projectile and dash punch. It's not actually that hard for Sub to close the distance on Jax and Sub doesn't rely on meter to hit Jax but he relies on it to punish your footsies and clones. This means he uses his meter outside of the corner against Sub-Zero because a good Sub-Zero forces him to.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Having played the matchup a lot, I think it's 6-4 Sub-Zero's favour. You have to play the entire match from just outside your own d4 range and that's where you can eliminate the ground pound cancel stuff from the equation; you can slide Jax for free if he tries to get space to keep zoning you or if he ground pound cancels. D4 Jax's wakeup all day every day and when you step in to pressure him, be prepared to pepper him with d4 so you can set up f4, ice blast.

Low hitbox makes it difficult for Sub-Zero to pressure Jax but you really just need to have a solid poking and counterpoking game to deal with Jax; from the correct range, Jax can only hurt you with armoured attacks.



This is false. For every tool Jax has, you have a viable counter. Jax has shitty wakeup options because you can d4 all but one of them and the elbow smash is one of the moves you say: "please wake up with that" to. I am also pretty sure he has to use the ex elbow smash too in case you cancel the d4 into a clone which will beat the invincibility frames on regular smash.

Sub doesn't have to fear going into the air against Jax either because he can alter his jump with the clone. Jax cannot just cancel a ground pound and challenge you in the air as a result. A well-timed air clone will also avoid his projectile and dash punch. It's not actually that hard for Sub to close the distance on Jax and Sub doesn't rely on meter to hit Jax but he relies on it to punish your footsies and clones. This means he uses his meter outside of the corner against Sub-Zero because a good Sub-Zero forces him to.
Nothing you do against Jax is free. If you try to play a counter poke game, he can simply counter with f4 stuff. Why in God's green earth would you want to do that?
Just because he has bad wakeup tools doesn't mean he has to wake up attack. Hell, what are you going to do after you knock Jax down exactly? He can just down block your d4 and counter with f4. You can't pressure him after a knockdown.
Again, you are playing people ignorant to the matchup.
Jax has better footsie, better space control and can make sub move when he wants him to move. You do realize that an air clone just allows Jax to close the distance on you correct? You have to cancel the clone high enough so that you don't get AA by standing 1... so he'll just dash under and f4.
 
Sub-Zero at this point is a hit-or-miss character. If the opponent doesn't know the match-up, then Sub-Zero can walk all over them. And if they do, there's not much he can do. It sounds like they just didn't know the match-up, because it is in Jax's favor.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
There are like 9 characters that he can't pressure at all mid screen... and of those... the top 5 preside there. If he could pressure those characters with 2,1 he'd at least have a punchers chance. At this point, he can't damage those characters without them making a mistake or 5.
Online it is damn near impossible to react to Subs 2 whiffing. Offline you can easily whiff punish this move once you are used to seeing it.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
Nothing you do against Jax is free. If you try to play a counter poke game, he can simply counter with f4 stuff. Why in God's green earth would you want to do that?
Just because he has bad wakeup tools doesn't mean he has to wake up attack. Hell, what are you going to do after you knock Jax down exactly? He can just down block your d4 and counter with f4. You can't pressure him after a knockdown.
Again, you are playing people ignorant to the matchup.
Jax has better footsie, better space control and can make sub move when he wants him to move. You do realize that an air clone just allows Jax to close the distance on you correct? You have to cancel the clone high enough so that you don't get AA by standing 1... so he'll just dash under and f4.
He can't just block the d4 and automatically f4 because this is a matchup where you should cancel d4 with clone every now and then.

Again, Jax cannot just dash up to my Sub-Zero and f4. The air ice clone is not something you just throw out, you use it to alter your jump to avoid ground pounds and to stop him challenging you in the air.

I got all my matchup experience against a very fine Jax player and I have no problem playing footsies against Jax. Perhaps I just know how to play against Jax?
 

Bidu

the CHILL of DESPAIR
Gotta play patience against Jax. If he is close you gonna get eaten by his normals. If you're at the corner you gonna get destroyed also.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
Gotta play patience against Jax. If he is close you gonna get eaten by his normals. If you're at the corner you gonna get destroyed also.
It's much easier for you to corner Jax than for him to corner you. That's why I said Sub makes Jax use his meter midscreen. Just have to be really methodical with your spacing and clone use.

I wish Sub-Zero players would stop fearing Jax. If you play scared, Jax will destroy you. You have to rely 100% on footsies against Jax. Think of it this way, if you're scared of Jax up close, you should be really scared of him from anywhere else on the screen because anywhere else Jax can completely control the game. The way you win against Jax is by forcing the errors out of Jax with your footsies up close.

You can't lame this character out. The way Sub players speak in general is that they're more scared of Jax than they are of Cage. That's completely the wrong way around. Once you learn how to beat Jax, you won't fear him at all. You will always fear Cage at the highest level, or you should, anyway.
 

Bidu

the CHILL of DESPAIR
And you saying that cuse you beat like 3 Jax Players?

I will always respect and even fear Jax at the level of CD JR or Tyrant. Doesn't even matter what character I'm playing... Just saying.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
And you saying that cuse you beat like 3 Jax Players?

I will always respect and even fear Jax at the level of CD JR or Tyrant. Doesn't even matter what character I'm playing... Just saying.
I didn't start this thread, lol.

There's a difference between respecting Jax's options because you know the matchup and fearing to go anywhere near him. The point I am making is that you do not play runaway against Jax. The only character you can play runaway against is Johnny Cage and Johnny cage is a lot better than Jax when he's in your grill.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
you do realize that.... if the Jax player is of any decent level... if you do corner him... he can simple wait for you to clone and switch places with you right? At any point if he has meter he can put you in an unfavorable position. If you whiff ONE d4 trying to play footsie he punishes with f4.

You have to be flawless to beat Jax. He can controls this match at the highest level. Basically sitting back and counter punching anything you throw out. Jax knows that you can't beat him by d4 alone.
Again... what are you going to do once you knock him down? d4? Really that is all you have.
When Jax knocks you down... he can keep his proximity and negate clones, and can simply lock you down with f4 string.

Again, the people you are playing are obviously ignorant to the matchup... or you are just that much better than they are in the skill department.