Question Is Sub Zero completely non-tournament viable?

[Bidu]

2 DOES hit mid ... just not vs low hit box characters lol

You think it is working as intended? Or do you think it's more like a glitch? I don't get why NRS made the cast with different hit boxes. For instance at SSF4AE, I believe that if a combo works in Zangief it's also going to work in... let's say, Sakura or Cammy. Do you get what I'm trying to say? lol

I'm hoping MKKE will beef up Sub Zero like how MKT beefed him up after UMK3.

The heck is MKKE?

 

[Fatality_check]

What do all the good SZ players have to say? Ones that arent completely influenced by what Brady says. I've played him for quite a while on and off, mainly in his bad matchups and I seriously dont think its as bad as everybody says. Sure its hard, but everybody has some hard matchups in this game.

I also play Baraka who I'd say has a worse time than SZ, but he is a beast character even so.

I've played him since release and I know the reason I lose my matchups/bad matchups is often because i'm doing things wrong. So it's a player thing, really. I personally don't think he's that bad, and he can pressure like a beast when you do it right.

What are the characters 2 whiffs on crouching?

 

[Enenra]

snip

MKKE is Mortal Kombat Komplete Edition, or the the newer version of MK9 coming out on Feb 28.
http://www.joystiq.com/2012/01/09/mortal-kombat-komplete-edition-koming-to-konsoles-february-28/

 

[Panque]

@Fatality_check
Just tested it against the whole cast but the DLC characters and kratos (Not sure why not Kratos, but he probably has a regular hitbox). This game looks so stupid to me now... but anyway:

Characters you will never hit, doesn't matters if blocking or not:
Kung Lao, Mileena and Jax

Ermac - The 2 hits on rare occasions if he is not blocking (most likely due to the "dancing" animation he has while crouching)

Reptile - The 2 hits on rare ocasions, less rare than Ermac, but it's rare if he is blocking too (has that dancing animation thing too).

Kitana - Hits some times if she is blocking, depending on the distance, otherwise you will never hit that bitch.

Cage - If he is just crouching you will hit him half of the time, if he is blocking tho, 99% of the time the 2 will whiff

Sektor - Never hits if he is blocking

Quan Chi - Same as Sektor, never hits if he is blocking

Ironically, the 2 will whiff some times on a crouch blocking Sub-Zero, lol.

 

[GGA soonk]

snip

Well don't tell the rest of TYM. They're convinced he has some of the best rushdown in the game.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Well don't tell the rest of TYM. They're convinced he has some of the best rushdown in the game.

Idiots... all of them.
BTW... whoever said he needed damage... quit using 2,1,4 on a grounded opponent. He does 32% on a JiP plus either a throw for 12% more... or 29% if you land 2,1,2~freeze or even more if you get a 2,2~freeze.
44% midscreen is low with no meter?

 

[GGA soonk]

You can't count a combo+throw as one combo damage. They duck that throw and you're now the one eating a combo, and their combo probably does more than your measly 32%.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I'm just saying... having that 50/50 ... where most people will simply allow you to throw them... and you can make a guess when you think they are desperate.
I do have one complaint... that bugs the absolute shit out of me. Why can't the ENTIRE clone be active? So I don't get freaking poked by my clone? I hate that to no end.

 

[Bidu]

What are the characters 2 whiffs on crouching?

There's so many, it's not even fun. From the top of my head: Kitana, Mileena (I think all females, with the obvious expection of Sheeva), Quan Chi, Reptile... there's more.

 

[salvificblood]

Characters I know 2 whiffs on when either neutral crouching or crouch blocking; Kung Lao, Ermac, Reptile, Quan Chi, Jax, Mileena, Kitana, Sektor and Johnny Cage.

My own matchup scores for all of those characters would be something like (Sub's score on the left):

Kung Lao: 2-8
Ermac: 5-5
Reptile: 5-5
Quan Chi: 5-5
Jax: 4-6 (used to think it was Sub's favour but it really isn't on paper the more I think about it)
Mileena: 3-7
Kitana: 4.5-5.5
Sektor: 4-6
Johnny Cage: 6-4 (Ex slide, although I change my mind constantly on this one).

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

4-6 with Jax? ... he's like a slower version of JC isn't he? idk... I seem to have good success against Jax.

 

[salvificblood]

4-6 with Jax? ... he's like a slower version of JC isn't he? idk... I seem to have good success against Jax.

He's nothing like JC really. The reason I think Sub beats JC is because he can keep him out and ex slide will put cage in the corner as well as stopping his pressure. You have to go to Jax. I've always had fairly decent success against Jax, too, but he has all the tools to beat Sub-Zero technically. Low hitbox, tonnes of armour, zoning with gp cancels that makes you move around and do all the work essentially.

Up close, JC is far more frightening than Jax, well, a really high level JC who makes reads while frame trapping you and doesn't just spam f3.

The matchups are actually not that bad for Sub-Zero, to be honest. We are focussing way too much on his weaknesses rather than on what we can do as Sub players to keep him competitive. I don't think he's as bad as everybody is making out. I still see him as a mid tier character, not low.

 

[Panque]

Idiots... all of them.
BTW... whoever said he needed damage... quit using 2,1,4 on a grounded opponent. He does 32% on a JiP plus either a throw for 12% more... or 29% if you land 2,1,2~freeze or even more if you get a 2,2~freeze.
44% midscreen is low with no meter?

This looks so delusional... I mean, it makes me feel bad for all of us. But yeah, his damage isn't his MAIN problem...

---

Characters you will never hit, doesn't matters if blocking or not:
Kung Lao, Mileena and Jax

Ermac - The 2 hits on rare occasions if he is not blocking (most likely due to the "dancing" animation he has while crouching)

Reptile - The 2 hits on rare ocasions, less rare than Ermac, but it's rare if he is blocking too (has that dancing animation thing too).

Kitana - Hits some times if she is blocking, depending on the distance, otherwise you will never hit that bitch.

Cage - If he is just crouching you will hit him half of the time, if he is blocking tho, 99% of the time the 2 will whiff

Sektor - Never hits if he is blocking

Quan Chi - Same as Sektor, never hits if he is blocking

Ironically, the 2 will whiff some times on a crouch blocking Sub-Zero, lol.

Really guys, I've tested all but dlc and kratos, this is the real deal. From all girls, only mileena and kitana are somewhat immune to sub's 2.

@Sgt Reed 24
Take a look at CD jr 's Jax. He is probably the best character in the game, definitively not a slower cage.

---

SZ is bottom 12, thats all there is to it. Maybe he could be viable if 75% of the characters that do well on tournaments weren't bad matchups for him. He is bottom-mid imo.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

This looks so delusional... I mean, it makes me feel bad for all of us. But yeah, his damage isn't his MAIN problem...

---


Really guys, I've tested all but dlc and kratos, this is the real deal. From all girls, only mileena and kitana are somewhat immune to sub's 2.

@Sgt Reed 24
Take a look at CD jr 's Jax. He is probably the best character in the game, definitively not a slower cage.

---

SZ is bottom 12, thats all there is to it. Maybe he could be viable if 75% of the characters that do well on tournaments weren't bad matchups for him. He is bottom-mid imo.

What is delusional? I don't really understand at all.

 

[Panque]

Having to count a completely hypothetical throw that will probably never hit a good player (The slide will get them pretty far from you, leaving your intentions pretty obvious) to pretend we have spectacular damage.
32% combo would be pretty acceptable, if it didn't had such a specific way to start it.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

He's not talking about after a slide...

He's talking about after you B121 them you can dash up and throw them. If they guess it's a throw and tech it, you won't get it... but if they don't and keep blocking, you'll get it. I use it frequently and it works wonders.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The throw after b1,2,1 is a mixup.... and there is no slide.
what I was saying was that his max damage using JiP b1,2,1 is 44%, assuming the throw.

even using just 2,2~freeze nets you 42% I think... i don't really remember at the moment.

I wouldn't complain about having the string itself do the 40%... that'd be sweet lol.

 

[Panque]

my bad, didn't figure it was after the b121. Still, the opponent must be on the ground, not frozen yet and you have to start it with JIP... You won't get that much off a clone (acceptable) or an ice ball you hit (completely unacceptable). if they are far from you and just a little bit into the air, all you are going to get is a slide. If they are high in the air you can dash and whiff the first hit of a b12 and get 20%, which is ridiculous. Jax can get almost that much for an armored move using one bar.

Not to mention that there is a big risk involved in going for a throw, like soonk mentioned. You might get away with it against some people but on a major you probably won't.

 

[PoliceBrutality]

whenever I see threads like this I often look at my character and be like ooofs we haven't even made top 33 yet and this guy is complaining about his ... just be content and continue to work on his bad matchups. Or just have a backup..i think it's that simple

 

[Bidu]

whenever I see threads like this I often look at my character and be like ooofs we haven't even made top 33 yet and this guy is complaining about his ... just be content and continue to work on his bad matchups. Or just have a backup..i think it's that simple

That's what Tom been doing since may 2011, I guess. LoL. He made top8 countless times. top4 few times and even top2 couple times. All that with Sub-Zero. Unlike many of us he doesn't play simply for fun. He travels all around his country participating in all kind of tournaments. It's not cheap ya know? I would've done the same long ago if I was him... (I mean main another character)

 

[Salad Petresky]

4-6 with Jax? ... he's like a slower version of JC isn't he? idk... I seem to have good success against Jax.

The reason why jax is so good is this. When jax use his ex punch, he puts you next to him, JC ex kick put sub far away so its pointless. And jax can zone out sub pretty well with ground pound and fast recovery projectile, jc cant do that

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Johnny Cage is a true 5-5. I don't care what anyone says. His pokes go through clones... and he can lock Sub with the same effectiveness that Sub can keep him out.

I dunno about a naked freeze. I mean... you normally are trading 7-9% so you can get a 20% or more combo. I still think the problem lies in ... exClone is dooooooooooody and 2 should be hitting all crouch BLOCKING characters.
Dave had the best idea for exClone.... no proximity and it can't be penetrated.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Someone once said that every time Subby toss an Ice Ball, the projectile is like a possible "30% damage" combo travelling through the screen ..... hehe

The question is : can you deliver it sucessfully about 3 times per round, without your opponent having a combo breaker ?

If so, and maths probability works at his favour, Subby might be ultra viable for tournaments, hehe

 

[Bidu]

If it's start up frames were faster it would be a lot easier to deliver it successfully 3+ times per round lol. But it's just way too slow, not an easy task.

 

[Panque]

plus you won't get 30% if the opponent is all the way across the screen. Against an opponent with fast projectiles, you will be getting hit by at least 1 fireball in order to trade successfully, which makes your damage even more meaningless. If you manage to freeze your opponent while he is on the ground (You won't against many characters), you can go for the b121 + pressure, which is currently his best tool imo. Also, since the ice ball is slow as fuck, if you don't time it perfectly (Usually you have to read a projectile and throw an ice ball just before your opponent throws it) you are risking a lot (Possibly 40%+ damage if your opponent is a char like ermac, cyrax, kitana).

One thing that SZ should be able to do, if they decide to keep his common damage as lame as it currently is, is deal a lot more damage with the use of one bar.