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Is Joker Good or Bad?

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
Iv heard a lot of different things about him, some say he sucks, some say he’s secretly pretty good, but hardly anyone plays him.


WHY is Joker good or WHY is he bad?
 

Laos_boy

Meow Hoes
Gun shot is his only neutral tool I mean d2 and d3 are okay ish. But it's not enough. I know flash and darkseid have sub par neutrals but they have way better mixes than joker which is what makes him good. There's just no reason to play joker at least in this state of the game.
 
He's ok. Without the wake up he was trash. One of the worst if not the worst character in the game imo.

The thing is, I can't really think of many characters that are much worse than him. He probably is in that bottom pool of characters that require high execution, strong reads, and lots of match up knowledge just to make a 6-4 feel more like a 5-5.

Why play him (for money) when there are plenty of other characters who give you more bang for your buck?

I play for fun so imo he's almost (just make trait useful for anything) good enough.

He has the worst neutral in the game though. So that sucks.
 
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TamedLizard

Buff George
He's alright. Not great, but nor is he the pile of garbage that he's been made out to be. He has below average neutral, but I personally think his bgb and corner game mostly make up for his shortcomings there. If you truly want to see no neutral with lackluster corner payoffs, play Raiden.

Tell you what though, regardless of his tier status, I still think he's one of the funnest characters in the game to play.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
He's fun to play but trash.

No real neutral

Ehh damage output

No real mix ups outside the corner or bgb

Has a great corner game... if you make the right reads and use the right setups.

High execution without very much reward

Overall just a character that has the tools to do things, but require an insane amount of MU knowledge, hard reads, insane risk with little reward situations and he easily becomes too predictable do to his actual lack of options in most situations.

He's a character that is extremely fun to play but fun is as far as it goes.

@Dankster Morgan if anybody says he's good, they don't know the MU or play aquaman or swamp thing.

People that lose to joker players swear that he's much better then he's led on to be but once some of those people take the time to actually learn the MU, they realize he's really not that good and they were just outplayed.
 
He's alright. Not great, but nor is he the pile of garbage that he's been made out to be. He has below average neutral, but I personally think his bgb and corner game mostly make up for his shortcomings there. If you truly want to see no neutral with lackluster corner payoffs, play Raiden.

Tell you what though, regardless of his tier status, I still think he's one of the funnest characters in the game to play.

I honestly forget Raiden is in this game. No one plays him. What's weird is that I think he was supposed to be a character with a very good neutral but something about him got lost in translation from theory to practice.
 

myri

Time Warrior
I think Joker suffers from a problem that quite a few characters in this game suffer from. Joker as a character is not bad in his own right, he has a lot of really good tools, gun shot is nice and fast, he has a lot of safety and some decent overhead/low mixups, frame traps, jump ins, good down 1, down 2, down 3 and now a pretty good wakeup too. I think this is the same for other characters that are considered low tier. Swamp Thing is now a good character in his own right, Raiden as well and pretty much every "low tier" character has great tools when you look at them on their own.

The problem I feel comes from the fact that when you have a character in a game like Joker and a character like say Supergirl, even if Joker's toolset is solid (which I believe it is) there is no reason to play Joker over a character like Supergirl which is better and also has easier execution. Personally I feel this problem very strongly when I play Ivy. She can do all the same things as Supergirl she just doesn't do them as well and the execution requirements are quite a bit more than Supergirl's.

Essentially I feel like the problem isn't necessarily that Joker is bad, in fact I think he is really solid in his own right, it's just that other characters in this game give you a whole lot more for a whole lot less work. Characters like Supergirl, Superman, Black Adam, Catwoman all give huge rewards for very little execution and a very simple gameplan, where as characters like Joker, Ivy, Captain Cold, Raiden and Swamp Thing ask for a whole lot more in the execution, gameplan and matchup knowledge departments while only rewarding you as much as the more simple characters or not even as much.

So how would I fix the problem? I'm not really sure that you can honestly. I think regardless of how characters like Supergirl and Catwoman are balanced in the future their gameplan and simple playstyle will always remain, while Joker players will always be required to have their teeth combos on deck to reach the characters potential.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass but that's how I see it.
 

gitblame

Noob
I think Swamp Thing managed to get out of this "good on his own but terrible in meta" pithole. But yeah, Joker, Raiden, Cold, Grodd, Ivy and Green Lantern are there
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Usually Superman but I feel that they make it an instant type of jump in and I have to take the mix from the mids.
Ah I got you. Supermans d2 actually works pretty well vs jokers jump ins except for a max range joker j3. That generally trades. If you know they are going to jump you can challenge jokers jumps with supermans j1.

Supermans j1 beats almost every joker jump attack EXCEPT a pre-emptive j1. If the joker knows your going for a j1, he will j1 for the trade.

Also mb b/f3 to check their jumps or learn what you can punish.

Another thing you can do is just take the blockstring and punish the ender. Example, if the joker ends with:

Crowbar, you can punish with f23 and his grab (I don't remember the input)

Canister, can be neutral jumped on reaction for a full combo punish

Teeth, f23 unless teeth came out after 212. That's safe

Deathspin, can be punished with supermans d1
 

Parasurama

Dragon
Ah I got you. Supermans d2 actually works pretty well vs jokers jump ins except for a max range joker j3. That generally trades. If you know they are going to jump you can challenge jokers jumps with supermans j1.



Supermans j1 beats almost every joker jump attack EXCEPT a pre-emptive j1. If the joker knows your going for a j1, he will j1 for the trade.

Also mb b/f3 to check their jumps or learn what you can punish.

Another thing you can do is just take the blockstring and punish the ender. Example, if the joker ends with:

Crowbar, you can punish with f23 and his grab (I don't remember the input)

Canister, can be neutral jumped on reaction for a full combo punish

Teeth, f23 unless teeth came out after 212. That's safe

Deathspin, can be punished with supermans d1

I don't think I can anti air... And it is his pre-emptive or early ji 1 after plus frames or when I am negative.

I think I have not been punishing as I thought his mix was safe is. Ignorance lol
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
I don't think I can anti air... And it is his pre-emptive or early ji 1 after plus frames or when I am negative.

I think I have not been punishing as I thought his mix was safe is. Ignorance lol
The way I play it as Supes is either staying full screen and trying to win the zoning war or basically in his face. Joker's jumps can be D2'd by Supes, who has a pretty decent D2 I would say, but usually the risk/reward factor is pretty out of your favour. JI1 works (Probably since it's like the best air to air in the game) but it is a read at the end of the day.

MB B3 is a pretty good answer if you have the bar, as mentioned, but can be armour broken if timed poorly and obviously, costs bar.

I usually let him do whatever out of negative, but if he's doing shit like ending a negative string into a jump, jump back 1 is life.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
The way I play it as Supes is either staying full screen and trying to win the zoning war or basically in his face. Joker's jumps can be D2'd by Supes, who has a pretty decent D2 I would say, but usually the risk/reward factor is pretty out of your favour. JI1 works (Probably since it's like the best air to air in the game) but it is a read at the end of the day.

MB B3 is a pretty good answer if you have the bar, as mentioned, but can be armour broken if timed poorly and obviously, costs bar.

I usually let him do whatever out of negative, but if he's doing shit like ending a negative string into a jump, jump back 1 is life.
You gotta be careful in your zone game though. Air lasers aren't as effective in this MU.

The best way to really beat joker is get a health lead and just let him come to you. Joker has no reliable way of opening superman up unless he's in the corner and teeth are out.

When joker has to chase someone, it can become extremely predictable since he has no reliable way of getting in.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
You gotta be careful in your zone game though. Air lasers aren't as effective in this MU.

The best way to really beat joker is get a health lead and just let him come to you. Joker has no reliable way of opening superman up unless he's in the corner and teeth are out.

When joker has to chase someone, it can become extremely predictable since he has no reliable way of getting in.
The air lasers aren't free but they have their place in the MU. Air dash is a really useful tool for dealing with Joker's D2 as well. Staying just outside of jump in range is where I usually like to play. Superman's forward dash is really good so he can do F23 stuff easily and he can then contest easier with J1.

I agree with the life lead part, it seems quite difficult to get the life lead back as Joker since all of his damage pretty much comes from the corner, and getting out of the corner is a bit easier with Supes since air dash and RGHV switches sides (even though it's a pretty trash wakeup) Even on block RGHV switches sides so if you have the life to spare for it it's not a terrible option and gets around some oki quite well (Not sure if Joker is among that list).
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
The air lasers aren't free but they have their place in the MU. Air dash is a really useful tool for dealing with Joker's D2 as well. Staying just outside of jump in range is where I usually like to play. Superman's forward dash is really good so he can do F23 stuff easily and he can then contest easier with J1.

I agree with the life lead part, it seems quite difficult to get the life lead back as Joker since all of his damage pretty much comes from the corner, and getting out of the corner is a bit easier with Supes since air dash and RGHV switches sides (even though it's a pretty trash wakeup) Even on block RGHV switches sides so if you have the life to spare for it it's not a terrible option and gets around some oki quite well (Not sure if Joker is among that list).
Rising grab wake up is definitely a risk in the MU for sure. Joker gets a full 32 combo punish from it that leads to corner carry or if you tried to rising grab out of the corner joker can 32 combo side switch you back into the corner. Also, something to look out for, jokers f2 can stuff all of supermans wake ups as well.

If you're a cornered superman, your best bet is to just know jokers setups, block and push block or block and punish depending on the setup.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Rising grab wake up is definitely a risk in the MU for sure. Joker gets a full 32 combo punish from it that leads to corner carry or if you tried to rising grab out of the corner joker can 32 combo side switch you back into the corner. Also, something to look out for, jokers f2 can stuff all of supermans wake ups as well.

If you're a cornered superman, your best bet is to just know jokers setups, block and push block or block and punish depending on the setup.
Yeah

Supes wakeup sucks hard. Like at least with Adam you just know you don't have one at all :)