Question - Cryomancer Is it really that bad? with a Buff thread

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Didn't we just have this conversation in two other threads?

 

[Lokheit]

Didn't we just have this conversation in two other threads?

It's getting tiresome to see all of these threads to say exactly the same, we should merge all of them instead of a new one popping every week to be honest, smh.

 

[MumbleCakes]

I really wish he had Ice Hammer Run Cancel and variation specific string adjustments. NJP ice sword, 111 overhead last hit, 114 cancelable and no belly flop, more sword strings like Ninjutsu. I'd gladly trade some damage potential for these and it would finally make him the offensive variation.

Yeah I definitely wish he had more sword and weapon strings like Ninjutsu. Cancels would be awesome as well.

 

[omooba]

Strengths
-pokes

but can't poke back against jason's d1

 

[champdee]

I think part of them problem is that subs base set just isn't good (compared to the rest of the cast)

 

[Tanno]

It would be cool if Kuai Liang had Bi Han's power as the original Sub Zero.

• Freeze: Sub-Zero could send a ball of ice and freeze the opponent in place. (MK, MKM:SZ)
• Lin Kuei Slide: He could slide across the floor and knock the opponent off their feet. (MK, MKM:SZ)
• Ground Freeze: Sub-Zero freezes the floor and whoever steps on the circle of ice will temporarily slip all over the place, setting the opponent up for a free hit. (MKM:SZ)
• Freeze in the Air: He could jump and freeze his opponent in the air. (MKM:SZ)
• Diagonal Freeze: Sub-Zero freezes the opponent, who is in the air. (MKM:SZ)
• Ice Clone: Sub-Zero creates an ice statue of himself anywhere he chooses, and anyone who touches it will freeze. (MKM:SZ)
• Freeze on Contact: Sub-Zero arranges a little jog, and whoever touches him freezes. (MKM:SZ)
• Super Lin Kuei Slide: Improved version of Lin Kuei Slide. He could slide across the floor on greater distance. (MKM:SZ)
• Deep Freeze: He could easily deep freeze opponents to the point of them becoming brittle enough to shatter into pieces. (MKM:SZ)
• Polar Blast: He had the ability to freeze the entire air itself by concentrating all of his ice power into one destructive blast. (MKM:SZ)

Some of these moves are known to the whole Lin Kuei community, but I would love to see the Polar Blast as X-Ray or EX Frost Bomb. The Deep Freeze is the Unbreakable's Brutality.

http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Bi-Han

 

[Temp]

I don't see how it's overkill. Ferra/Torr gets bigger damage than Cryo and has the farthest reaching NJP in the game. Just a little sword like scorpion's ninjutsu variation.

I'll be honest and say that I'm not super familiar with ferra's ground game and conversions. That said, it just doesn't seem like a great idea from my perspective. Without the buff, Cryo gets 41% off a NJP conversion and can put the opponent in the corner from literally any part of the screen (to be fair, the run-under B+2 is a giant pain; I don't even bother with it most of the time; nonetheless, it's a thing).

That's a really good tool. Crazy good, IMO. Even if it wouldn't break Cryo, I don't think he needs it. I don't think ANYONE needs it, lol. Just my thoughts, though. I'll admit that he needs more ice blades in his aesthetics.

@UsedForGlue You seem to know the alt variations of Sub better than anyone. Thoughts?

 

[Braindead]

Cryomancer needs a block infinite to be viable tbh.

 

[crosshair271]

How about an Ice Hammer toss. Recycle the animation from MK9 Shao Kahn. Regular one stuns on hit, EX is unblockable knockdown.

 

[NooBooN]

I wanna pick up cryo. He seems to be decent yet ive seen around this forum that he's on the low side of the chart. I dont quite understand the weaknesses. Someone school me on them so i know how to hide them from my opponents.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Cryomancer is all about braindead 50/50s that are extremely unsafe and if your opponent knocks you down, the match is over. The variation is like master of souls ermac but even that variation has safe options; Cryo has none.

 

[Temp]

I wanna pick up cryo. He seems to be decent yet ive seen around this forum that he's on the low side of the chart. I dont quite understand the weaknesses. Someone school me on them so i know how to hide them from my opponents.

He's really only got one true weakness, and that's his bad normals/pokes. Other than that, he's a good footsies character. It's just that so many characters in MKX don't have to play footsies, so his only real strategy is to run in with a mix-up and do as much damage as possible.

 

[Temp]

if your opponent knocks you down, the match is over.

Not sure I agree here. Ex-Slide is a really good reversal, and ex-shatter is a decent reversal that leads into a full BnB.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Not sure I agree here. Ex-Slide is a really good reversal, and ex-shatter is a decent reversal that leads into a full BnB.

EX slide is not a threat considering it does medicore damage, doesn't allow him to hide behind a clone, and doesn't lead to a full combo as compared to mileena's roll. EX shatter has a very small upward hitbox so basically Cryomancer is free to jumpovers on wakeup. Also, all of his reversals are full combo punishable if they are blocked. The character is always negative and one mistake by the player is all it takes for a loss. He is no threat either midscreen and can easily be zoned out. Yeah sure, you can do a full screen wakeup slide but you just spent bar on a combo breaker you will not be able to build back whatsoever, unless of course your opponent blocked that wakeup and is punishing you for it.

 

[IrishMantis]

On paper this should be the pressure variation but he's got like no plus frames lol

Plus really shitty armour

Buff wise off the top of my head that would kinda help

Make 112 + 2
F21 + 2
Normal hammer +4 (maybe 2 frames faster)
Ex Hamner 2 hits of armour (still Same on block as it is now)
Air hammer faster starr up and improved area of effect
Air hammer has a huge active hitbox from start up till lands
Ex version Launches

I'm not too familiar with the char but from off the head these are what I think would help at least

 

[STRYKIE]

EX slide is not a threat considering it does medicore damage, doesn't allow him to hide behind a clone, and doesn't lead to a full combo as compared to mileena's roll. EX shatter has a very small upward hitbox so basically Cryomancer is free to jumpovers on wakeup. Also, all of his reversals are full combo punishable if they are blocked. The character is always negative and one mistake by the player is all it takes for a loss. He is no threat either midscreen and can easily be zoned out. Yeah sure, you can do a full screen wakeup slide but you just spent bar on a combo breaker you will not be able to build back whatsoever, unless of course your opponent blocked that wakeup and is punishing you for it.

What exactly is your idea of a character who isn't "dead when they get knocked down" then....

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Shitty armor...? Bad wake ups...? Lol, what? You guys clearly don't have much MU experience when it comes to Cryo.

As has been said by @Temp and many others who actually know the character, he just needs a better poke and F12 to be faster.

 

[DarksydeDash]

What exactly is your idea of a character who isn't "dead when they get knocked down" then....

Kung LAO, Mileena, Shinnok, Takeda, Jacqui, Jason, Erron Black, Kano, WG Kotal, Scorpion, Johnny, etc.

Seeing a trend here?

You have characters with threatening wake ups that make you block or have safe armor. IF Cryomancer didn't have a reactable MB hammer, then he'd be scary on knock down.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Shitty armor...? Bad wake ups...? Lol, what? You guys clearly don't have much MU experience when it comes to Cryo.

As has been said by @Temp and many others who actually know the character, he just needs a better poke and F12 to be faster.

F12 should be +2 if his pokes don't get changed, 9 frames pokes are too slow.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Kung LAO, Mileena, Shinnok, Takeda, Jacqui, Jason, Erron Black, Kano, WG Kotal, Scorpion, Johnny, etc.

Seeing a trend here?

You have characters with threatening wake ups that make you block or have safe armor. IF Cryomancer didn't have a reactable MB hammer, then he'd be scary on knock down.

Cryomancer already gets 32% off of frost bomb. Wake ups or armor isn't his problem. His problem is that he has bad offense and footsies for a supposed offensive variation.

 

[Tweedy]

No one is "free to jump overs on wake up".

People who are at that stage in the learning curve where they jump over wake ups and stuff, NEED to play a top player.

You'll be like "okay, well this isn't even viable".

It really is not a talking point when referencing viability and high level play.

 

[Darth-Nero]

If there is anything i would like subzero to get it'll be that uprock-like move he used to have in MK3. I think i'll be all the help he requires if he can pressure rain down freeze showers on the opponents.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

If there is anything i would like subzero to get it'll be that uprock-like move he used to have in MK3. I think i'll be all the help he requires if he can pressure rain down freeze showers on the opponents.

If it's like current uprock then he will still suck, but pre patch up rock hell yeah

 

[STRYKIE]

Kung LAO, Mileena, Shinnok, Takeda, Jacqui, Jason, Erron Black, Kano, WG Kotal, Scorpion, Johnny, etc.

Seeing a trend here?

You have characters with threatening wake ups that make you block or have safe armor. IF Cryomancer didn't have a reactable MB hammer, then he'd be scary on knock down.

The only characters you've listed here that have both a fast wakeup and a safe option are Johnny and Kano. The rest are either unsafe or can be stuffed on wakeup without too much trouble.

Also, sometimes it's okay to just get up and block.

Sub-Zero may be a flawed character in some respects but his armor options, categorically speaking, isn't one of them.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Sub has some of the best armor options in the game. That's one of his biggest strengths.