Is Injustice 2 REALLY a spamming fest? Podcast discussion.

[SewerRat]

@CrimsonShadow I see your post has a Gears of War logo around the MK Dragon. Gears of War as you know is a shotgun heavy game which leads to most kills. When you bring out a lancer, scrubs constantly ask "why you lancer bro." As in Injustice, and most games, space is a resource, and good players will do what ever they can to make your life hell by controlling that space. In Gears, competitive play is hurt by over aggressive plays and throwing your life away. Space control is fighting games. Injustice has tons of space, tons of interactables to manage, and each character has their tools. Can we stop moaning already and just play the game and level up? Its like ya'll have never played MegaMan or something. You have the tools to get around because your hand is on the controller, and you have a lab. You should enjoy the struggle. Players now day want the reward handed to them, and don't appreciate the elegant struggle of enforcing your will.

 

[Eldriken]

I doubt anyone's too offended by anything it's just a big fat double standard.

Perhaps I should have clarified a bit better when I made my initial post.

I wasn't asking anyone to stop making jokes. I often enjoy a lot of them that are made. But I've also seen what they can cause.

I just wanted to make sure no one started getting all pissy over anything.

 

[neveradestroyer]

This thread is becoming abysmal man.

 

[God Confirm]

At around 36min Reo makes a good point. MKX had some very powerful zoners, everyone remembers the offensive play but there was some insane projectiles in there.

I think Injustice 2 is getting heat not for having zoners that are too strong, just for it being too prevalent, like 2 outta 3 characters have some kinda good projectile even if its not their dirt. A lot of people don't like the style and NRS's extremely simple way of designing zoners.

 

[Eldriken]

At around 36min Reo makes a good point. MKX had some very powerful zoners, everyone remembers the offensive play but there was some insane projectiles in there.

I think Injustice 2 is getting heat not for having zoners that are too strong, just for it being too prevalent, like 2 outta 3 characters have some kinda good projectile even if its not their dirt. A lot of people don't like the style and NRS's extremely simple way of designing zoners.

HQT Predator was annoying af. I hated that MU.

 

[neveradestroyer]

Zoners can be good and thrive in a rush down heavy scenario like mkx
just ask to 'Kenshi, Ermac, Takeda,Reptile, Hish qu ten predator, non high tech jackie, Kung jin' etc ect.

The issue with injustice 2 is the way too big scenarios and lack of a mobility tool for compensate for the zoning. MB roll is not acceptable enough.

MK9 has dash block
MKX has run
Inj2 has Mb roll

The latter one is very limited compared with the other two.

 

[God Confirm]

HQT Predator was annoying af. I hated that MU.

HQT was so tough! Pyromancer had ridic projectiles like REO said, Kitana was so dumb, Sektor, etc. Even characters like Kano, he didn't have the hit advantage or something to mix up projectiles with to keep you out forever buth he didn't need to he was fine up close. Aftershock Tremor would be one of this game's best zoners if he was in here. Shinnok, Mystic Ermac, Acidic Alien, Quan Chi, etc, there was a deceptive amount of good zoners, and this is ignoring the shakier ones like Kenshi, Ancestral, Special Forces, Full Auto, etc.


From there even plenty of rushdown characters had good projectiles, like JC orbs, Jax, Mileena sais, Hollywood quick guns, etc. Oh I almost forgot about Liu Kang iaFB's lol especially in firefist goddamn


There's a difference here to how the zoning in each game is been received, everyone agrees it's just a much bigger factor in injustice 2 and I THINK that this is due to the mechanics behind the game. Run button and shorter screens and a lot of advancing armor in the neutral and slides + rolls + quick teleports probably has a lot to do with this, also with larger movepools in MKX most characters had different options to play with zoning in their own way and most characters never felt truly bored on the other side, even if it was just setting up something on the screen or something like that, a lot of those kinda moves are gear now.

Or maybe the community is just sick of it now. I think as online gaming, especially for fighting, has skyrocketed in the time period we are dealing with here (remember MKX didn't even have a playable netcode on release, look where we are now!), I think people have naturally branched out to other fighters more as a result, which really does more to highlight the nature of zoning in this game than any podcast or forum dispute. NRS's way of designing zoning, is 9 times outta 10 extremely lazy, and involves spamming one projectile with another mixed in for like pushback or chip or a set-up or something once conditioned. This isn't hate, I'm just commenting on game design for their zoners. I feel like the fact that this thread even has to be made kinda cements that, especially when the only real argument AGAINST it is still not saying that it doesn't exist or the zoning isn't spamming, but just that it isn't "OP" or dominating the gameplay balance. Sure, but it's still a core part of the game design, and compare it to any other game, even the next most basic ones like SFV, and you see that the WAY it's built (NOT how strong it is) is more spammy than the alternatives. I enjoy playing a zoner in like every game except NRS games and that says something to me.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

End of the day though, these are all minor quibbles. Whether or not you’re a fan of Inj’s particular style of zoning, the game is great. Most neutral-based title we’ve had, the most solid engine (free of a lot of the crazy bugs of previous engines), and the best balanced so far. There’s a top 8-worthy archetype for several playstyles, and that’s cool.

Whether or not you feel the game is for you, it’s a rewarding title for the people who are interested in it, and we should support it and encourage people to participate in our community so that it keeps growing year after year.

 

[Blewdew]

HQT was so tough! Pyromancer had ridic projectiles like REO said, Kitana was so dumb, Sektor, etc. Even characters like Kano, he didn't have the hit advantage or something to mix up projectiles with to keep you out forever buth he didn't need to he was fine up close. Aftershock Tremor would be one of this game's best zoners if he was in here. Shinnok, Mystic Ermac, Acidic Alien, Quan Chi, etc, there was a deceptive amount of good zoners, and this is ignoring the shakier ones like Kenshi, Ancestral, Special Forces, Full Auto, etc.


From there even plenty of rushdown characters had good projectiles, like JC orbs, Jax, Mileena sais, Hollywood quick guns, etc. Oh I almost forgot about Liu Kang iaFB's lol especially in firefist goddamn


There's a difference here to how the zoning in each game is been received, everyone agrees it's just a much bigger factor in injustice 2 and I THINK that this is due to the mechanics behind the game. Run button and shorter screens and a lot of advancing armor in the neutral and slides + rolls + quick teleports probably has a lot to do with this, also with larger movepools in MKX most characters had different options to play with zoning in their own way and most characters never felt truly bored on the other side, even if it was just setting up something on the screen or something like that, a lot of those kinda moves are gear now.

Or maybe the community is just sick of it now. I think as online gaming, especially for fighting, has skyrocketed in the time period we are dealing with here (remember MKX didn't even have a playable netcode on release, look where we are now!), I think people have naturally branched out to other fighters more as a result, which really does more to highlight the nature of zoning in this game than any podcast or forum dispute. NRS's way of designing zoning, is 9 times outta 10 extremely lazy, and involves spamming one projectile with another mixed in for like pushback or chip or a set-up or something once conditioned. This isn't hate, I'm just commenting on game design for their zoners. I feel like the fact that this thread even has to be made kinda cements that, especially when the only real argument AGAINST it is still not saying that it doesn't exist or the zoning isn't spamming, but just that it isn't "OP" or dominating the gameplay balance. Sure, but it's still a core part of the game design, and compare it to any other game, even the next most basic ones like SFV, and you see that the WAY it's built (NOT how strong it is) is more spammy than the alternatives. I enjoy playing a zoner in like every game except NRS games and that says something to me.

I‘m pretty sure that‘s what it‘s about. Mkx had some really good zoners yes but they can get punished BIG time for mistakes with run+ advancing 7-10 frames strings and for some characters it‘s super hard to get out of it, especially for hqt and summoner with their shitty armor.
In i2 it‘s way slower to get in, the reward is similiar but it‘s harder to punish people for just throwing out stuff and you need to be patient all the time. Mb roll is what run is in mkx and it works sometimes but it‘s definitely not as good.

 

[Obly]

Or maybe the community is just sick of it now...

Yeah, good point, very interesting. Maybe it's just not the flavor a lot of players want right now. Not sure how to respond to that, since I don't have a good sense of what it is about other current gen fighters that seems more appealing. I can't imagine differences in zoning mechanics is the only explanation, but might be a part.

NRS's way of designing zoning, is 9 times outta 10 extremely lazy, and involves spamming one projectile with another mixed in for like pushback or chip or a set-up or something once conditioned...

Just to offer another point of view, I2's zoning doesn't seem lazy to me so much as "simple", and there's a certain elegance to simplicity. I think it also works well considering I2 has so many characters that don't fit a classic archetype. Simple zoning tools mix better and work better in combination within varied toolkits that also emphasize tools for close-in work, movement, set-ups, etc. I think it gives I2 great diversity that is so much more interesting than if there were only a few classic "zoners" with complex tools, while everyone else had none.

Sure, but it's still a core part of the game design, and compare it to any other game, even the next most basic ones like SFV, and you see that the WAY it's built (NOT how strong it is) is more spammy than the alternatives...

You've got a point here--but again, I come back to the fact that the high-level players aren't spamming (and only rarely play a pure zoning game); they're using their character's whole, varied toolkit. So I can't completely buy this argument that the game is built for spamming. It's clear that above a certain skill level, spammy zoning is no longer a winning strategy. It's only the scrubs who are doing it (who, yeah I know, make up 99% of the player base ). Seems like too few players are able to grow out of the zoning habit and reach the game's greater potential.

How does NRS fix this? Ehh, I don't know... they don't pay me the big bucks. But it does feel fundamentally like a skill learning problem, not a game design problem.