Is Injustice 2 REALLY a spamming fest? Podcast discussion.

Discussion in 'Podcasts, Shows & Archives' started by General M2Dave, Sep 23, 2018.

By General M2Dave on Sep 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM
  1. General M2Dave

    Hello, my fools.

    Another month. Another episode. Link and timestamps below:

    Major topics include Southern California Regional (0:25), zoning in Injustice 2 (18:18), desirable gameplay elements for Mortal Kombat 11 (29:21), and the probability of Mortal Kombat 11 being 2 vs. 2 (39:26). We also pick up on @Obly 's "zoning myth" thread and nominate the "Fool of the Week" (@CrimsonShadow).

    As usual, any feedback is welcome.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2018
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Discussion in 'Podcasts, Shows & Archives' started by General M2Dave, Sep 23, 2018.

    1. CrimsonShadow
      Since you misrepresented everything I said and then tagged me, I'll repeat it:

      Someone asked, "Why do people hate zoning so much in our games, even though non-zoning characters are ultimately winning the tournaments?"

      And the answer is:
      • The specific style of zoning in Injustice games combined with the size of the screen/stages and the distances between characters is something that people aren't used to from other games.
      • Tons of fast hitscan projectiles, zoning with built-in mixups, zoning that's a mixup on meterburn, tons of knockback, multi-hitting projectiles that break armor, etc. Most zoning in games like SF5 is either slower or shorter with less knockback.
      • We don’t have the specific defensive/projectile invulnerable moves/trading from SF-style games; or the mobility and air mobility you typically see with the "bullet-hell"-style zoning in anime games (air dashing, air blocking, double jumps, etc), so combined with the above, it annoys people.

      The second big reason is that we've had a history of zoners, especially in the first 6 months of games, that are actually overpowered, or don't have significant weaknesses to offset the zoning strengths. Kenshi, Zod, Early IGAU Adam and Supes, Martian, Deadshot, etc. Our games get a rep early in their lifespan that tends to stick with them even after they’re patched.

      This doesn't mean that the zoning is actually the dominant playstyle in Injustice 2. Nor does it mean that it doesn't take skill to win as a zoner. It's just a reputation Injustice games have due to their design.
      Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
      Do you even play injustice? I have literally NEVER seen you enter a tournament. No offense man but just bc you are a mod on tym doesn’t mean you know what you are talking about. I read your posts in the zoning thread and just laugh. No offense. You do a lot for the community but I find it hard to take your game play thoughts seriously.
      Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    3. KingHippo
      Rude and CrimsonShadow like this.
    4. CrimsonShadow
      If you'd like to rebut a specific point I'm happy to discuss it with you. If you don't actually have something to discuss, I'm not going to take the bait.

      The two of you typically resort to ad hominem attacks when you don't actually have a logical point to present.
      Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    5. NothingPersonal
      Lol, like, who cares about the n'th podcast of m2dave talking about zoning. Really...
    6. Marlow
      To be fair, while I think zoning is too often victimized, there were plenty of people complaining about Catwoman and her B3/ability to low profile since day 1. It just got drowned out by all Deadshot hysteria.
      SewerRat likes this.
    7. Swindle
      This thread will not attract nor produce any constructive discussion. I recommend closure.
      It’s for the best.
    8. JBeezYBabY
      Lets not forget the suffering of Supergirl....that bitch was stupid.
    9. neveradestroyer
      Forget it.
      Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    10. Badboy Takuma
      Badboy Takuma
      no closure please this is a fun thread !!!!
      The_Tile and Icefyre like this.
    11. Skedar70
      There is not only 4 zoners in the game. The game follows this loop: Does my character outzone yours? Yes -> zone, No get zoned. Example Firestorm is not considered a zoner according to Reo yet if a firestorm is playing a swamp thing a wonder woman a raphael they will walk back and start shooting projectiles for most of the game. These guys aren't looking at the whole game they are just talking about the main zoners. Yes the game is zoning heavy this has been my experience for the lifespan that I have played inj 2. Look at how Atom is played, how is he not considered a zoner? These characters I mentioned are not even heavy rushdown characters that you prefer to avoid(flash, bane). This is not a tournament argument this is the majority of how the game is generally played and even if we do talk about tournaments people seem to forget about the 6 dead shots and 4 pocket star fire tournaments we have seen.

      If you are talking about the actual bigger picture, Inj 2 is not just tournament players. The whole group of people who play the game daily are constantly dodging and shooting projectiles more than any other fighting game in the market. Yes the game is zoning heavy.
    12. Zerodegreez
      Deleted Account
      Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
      ZATA likes this.
    13. neveradestroyer
      This is was a drunkard rant. Please not mind. Everything is OK.
      Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    14. Jeremy KO
      Jeremy KO
      How would you guys feel about NRS adding counter hits and more universal high/low crush properties into the next game?
    15. General M2Dave
      General M2Dave
      You can make an argument for almost any broken character archetype as the first version of an NRS game, as is the case with every fighting game to be fair, is unbalanced. Certain teleport characters (i.e., Smoke in Mortal Kombat 9, Martian Manhunter and Batgirl in Injustice 1, Imposter Shinnok and Possessed Kenshi in Mortal Kombat X, and Black Manta in Injustice 2) also tend to be top tier characters who frequently counter the type of zoning that you talk about. Of course, I have never ever seen you make this argument as this fact does not fit your anti-zoning narrative.

      Furthermore, I have already discussed why comparing and contrasting zoning from one fighting game to another is meaningless. Injustice 2 does have the kind of zoning that you accurately outlined in your bullet points, but the game also has a meter burn roll, teleports, long range jumping attacks, and interactable objects for mobility, which Street Fighter 5 lacks. Speaking of Street Fighter 5, the game game's zoning has its own advantages. Almost all projectiles hit mid, irrespective of position on the screen, have better block and whiff recoveries, have more push back on block, and EX versions are sometimes adequately plus on block to force mix ups. This information is arbitrary to both games, though, because zoning effectiveness depends entirely on the character and the match up. I personally believe that Guile and Menat are better than Dr. Fate and Starfire because they have much better offensive options. However, the Capcom fighting game community does not consist of whining children or anti-zoning zealots such as yourself so this issue is mostly non-existent.
    16. CrimsonShadow
      Ok. So some of those mechanics are limited by the frequency of appearance/use. How many Injustice 2 characters have teleports, for example? Only a few.

      Most of the other differences are appropriate for the other factors in SF's design:

      In general, the screen size is small enough that often jumping a projectile or timing a dash means you're already in footsie range. This is why it still makes sense for characters like Guile to have strong footsie tools -- because it's a lot harder to just 'keep someone out' with your projectile when they're constantly so close.

      How much of these matches are played outside of footsie range/close range? Maybe 10% at best.

      If you're using an EX projectile for plus frames, (or something like Menat's Orb on block), then you're already made a commitment to move in from zoning to press your offense. So that's kind of a moot point.

      It makes sense that the projectiles recover better because they're generally slower. Allowing Injustice characters with fullscreen hitscan weapons to have quick recovery doesn't make for balanced zoning.

      In general though, I'm not speaking to the balance -- only to the style of zoning. In recent SF games we've seen some occasional extreme examples where someone needs superhuman patience to work their way in (say, Snake Eyes in Ultra). But it's generally the exception and not the rule. In Injustice, you see this in every tournament. It's just a fact of life of playing Inj games. Doesn't make it OP, but I can also understand why the zoning gets the rep that it does.
      Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
      Xzyj and Darth-Nero like this.
    17. Gooberking
      I still have a way to go, but honestly dude, that was gross. You are calling out someone publicly, while feeding your barely understandable version of something they said to two important people and expecting them to have meaningful commentary on it.

      I get that there is a long running issue going on that is bigger than one thread, or one guy's opinion, but if you are going to make it a talking point, be honest, read it to people before asking for their opinion. The text is all there. For all the highlighting of the thread, it seems like all you did was use it as a spring board to eyeroll and call someone a fool without actually representing it at all.

      If you want to talk about the online community affecting the offline one, keep feeding the offline community biased, reductions of a conversation to deliberately made to invoke reactions you want. Maybe I'm overacting, and I'm not super plugged into a lot of the regular conversations going on, but that just seemed tabloid style to me.

      If there is a spot later where specific posts were read and debated, I will consider apologizing.
    18. HGTV Soapboxfan
      HGTV Soapboxfan
      I feel like we go around and around in circles about this whole "why don't people like injustice 2" thing. It's just beating a dead horse at this point. I think the truth is honestly that people like to complain and the game is difficult to be good at (requires a lot of fundamentals and the things you need to fix to be better are often micro spacing decisions and nuanced resource management). Instead of appealing to the people that just want flashy stuff we need to try to build our community by being informative for players so that the community can understand why it is hype when semiij and tweedy are just walking back and forth for 30 seconds. I know it is hard because dealing with uninformed people is exhausting and that pushed a lot of top players away from discussing the game openly, but if we want our community to grow in a healthy way that is the work we need to do. That isn't to say I wouldn't rather mk11 to have better music and some better animation as well as the ranked system and all, but if I don't know how much I want to be in a community that picks its fighting games because of how hype the music is. All of that stuff is awesome and is surely what brought us all here in the first place, this being an mk site and all, but the reason people should be staying is because they learn to appreciate the nuances of high level fighting game play. Sometimes it feels like we have forgotten that.

      EDIT: Gonna add a personal anecdote here as an example. My first fighting game was mk9 where I happened to watch Tom Brady play sub zero at CEO 2011 and fell in love. There was an old podcast he did with S1lent1 where he would literally just give tips on how to play different characters. Of course that devolved into a lot of yelling and complaining because god bless Tom, but I was hooked because of all of the potential I saw in high level fighting game play. Fast forward to whichever MLG Curbolicious made his debut and I watched him on stream walk back and punish a Kabal f4 with Cage's b3 and my mind was blown again. Not that I hadn't seen people play footsies and whiff punish before but the way Curbo used it as a form of offense, controlling that space to gain screen control, something clicked. THAT kind of stuff is what we should be working to hype the community up on. Injustice 2 is full of that stuff, and it is fucking awesome. This game is hype as shit once you understand what is going on. Just nobody is helping people understand what is going on.
      Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
      SewerRat, Obly and Rizz091 like this.
    19. B. Shazzy
      B. Shazzy
    20. kcd117
      I don't see why people complain so much about zoning. Yeah we had MK9 kenshi and IGAU Zod but now we have what? Fate and Starfire? They are not even good bc they can zone you out, Fate is good bc his neutral is godlike and safe but he can't just spam his stuff, and Starfire is bit scrubby since her zoning is a mind game but she is good bc when you get in she can disrespect all your + frames and wake up for free for the most part.

      I agree that zoning is relatively easy to play in this game but no characters are really hard to play. Zoning good players effectively takes a lot of patience and discipline, 50/50ing good players only takes luck. I'd rather play mk9 kenshi over current flash bc I know if I lose it is mainly due to my mistakes and not bc "well, I guessed wrong on his 57th safe/plus mixup so I have to eat 60% into corner oki now".

      Over the past games the zoning archetype is getting weaker but the mindless 50/50 rushdown stays the same. I don't get why it is okay that we are still dealing with mk9 style of bullshit up close but the zoning is "ruining" the game when it is becoming a much more balanced and counterable option every new game.
      SewerRat and Rizz091 like this.
      See people post shit like this to prove a point. This was literally on twitter today. Yep zoning is over powered and needs nerfed. Meanwhile multiple characters kill u in one touch and one reset.

      Marinjuana and Rizz091 like this.
    22. LaidbackOne
      First of all, its Shazzy.
      Second, have you even read his post or did just decide to overreact?
      He never said zoning is overpowered.
    23. haketh
      What year am I in where I’m seeing another M2Dave Zoning podcast episode
      Brack1sh likes this.
      I know shazzy I think we played a few long sets. Yes I read the post.

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