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Important Details Regarding Punishing

THTB

RIP Arez & Booya
Thanks to a tweet from @Dizzy, there's new info regarding blocking things in Injustice 2.

In regards to punishing within 1-frame windows, NRS has added a buffer window during the last 2 frames of blockstun. This means that, as long as you input your punish normal either on or just before the punishment window, you will get the punish. This also means that you are more likely to get your proper interrupts on safe options but have holes where you can interrupt their next option.

This brings me to the next point, which was revealed in a follow-up tweet. Frame data in the move list uses ONLT the startup frames. A common thing within the FGC as a whole is that the first active frame is included in startup when frame data is compiled. This is purely the startup frames. This means when calculating which normals punish what, add 1 frame to the frame data listed. If that number is equal to or lower than the disadvantage number, then you have your punish. Specials when input as a reversal will remove 1 frame of blockstun. So in the case of specials, simply use the number listed and you have your punishment numbers.
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
So let's get this settled nice and early so my brain can rest easy.

- some move on block is -8

- 7 frame normal will punish, but there is a two frame buffer before the end of blockstun to make 1st frame punishes easier

- 6 frame special will punish, also with the buffer?
 

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
Best universal punish for all characters: d2

For example, Firestorm lacks a natural launcher without meter, but he can get some damage off of a d2 cancelled into a fireball and then string into ender.
 
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Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
So let's get this settled nice and early so my brain can rest easy.

- some move on block is -8

- 7 frame normal will punish, but there is a two frame buffer before the end of blockstun to make 1st frame punishes easier

- 6 frame special will punish, also with the buffer?
8 frame reversal special can punish a -8 move, as can a 7 frame normal.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
?

So you think it's ok that this info is not included within the game, in the frame data section but has to actually be researched? Why does the game tell me I can punish a move when I actually can't because of some hidden to the player mechanic?
Because NRS games are like Dark Souls games. You gotta figure it out yourself.
 

THTB

RIP Arez & Booya
?

So you think it's ok that this info is not included within the game, in the frame data section but has to actually be researched? Why does the game tell me I can punish a move when I actually can't because of some hidden to the player mechanic?
By technicalities, startup is just the wind up frames before the first active frame. The first active frame is the execution frame. We are taught to include that execution frame within startup to make it easier to decipher things. There's no additional stuff to note, just the community compiled frame data and doesn't properly leave explanations and NRS used the technical definition lol. I actually knew the true definition of startup from researching frame data before SFIV, where it became common practice to just add 1 for first active frame. Just never knew that NRS went the technical route, much like everyone else.

Also, other things to note. The armor on MB b3/f3 activates on frame 5. This means that a gap that can only be interrupted by a reversal Batman/Joker counter is a 4f gap, any gap that can be MB b3ed through is 5f, Canary/WoWo counter/parry is 6f, and at any 6f normal you can interrupt, it's 7f. @RagingRicans
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
By technicalities, startup is just the wind up frames before the first active frame. The first active frame is the execution frame. We are taught to include that execution frame within startup to make it easier to decipher things. There's no additional stuff to note, just the community compiled frame data and doesn't properly leave explanations and NRS used the technical definition lol. I actually knew the true definition of startup from researching frame data before SFIV, where it became common practice to just add 1 for first active frame. Just never knew that NRS went the technical route, much like everyone else.

Also, other things to note. The armor on MB b3/f3 activates on frame 5. This means that a gap that can only be interrupted by a reversal Batman/Joker counter is a 4f gap, any gap that can be MB b3ed through is 5f, Canary/WoWo counter/parry is 6f, and at any 6f normal you can interrupt, it's 7f. @RagingRicans
If you're going to include the most basic tool for someone to compete in a game, you should do it exactly how it's portrayed all the time. If you want to go technical, then state it.

This is the 2nd game where I have to remember mid-casuals what an NRS employee said/twitted regarding my S1 not punishing some random based on a +-1 because I can't trust the frame data ingame.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
If you're going to include the most basic tool for someone to compete in a game, you should do it exactly how it's portrayed all the time. If you want to go technical, then state it.

This is the 2nd game where I have to remember mid-casuals what an NRS employee said/twitted regarding my S1 not punishing some random based on a +-1 because I can't trust the frame data ingame.
yeah, if they gonna do in game frame data....do it right x-x
 

THTB

RIP Arez & Booya
If you're going to include the most basic tool for someone to compete in a game, you should do it exactly how it's portrayed all the time. If you want to go technical, then state it.

This is the 2nd game where I have to remember mid-casuals what an NRS employee said/twitted regarding my S1 not punishing some random based on a +-1 because I can't trust the frame data ingame.
I mean, it's not entirely the dev's fault. Blame the community for the misinformation lol. NRS is the only one I know of listing startup data in the technical sense when everyone else goes by community standard, so I agree it's stupid that they don't, but at the same time, the community should make sure all the technicalities are known for frame data so situations like this make sense instead of causing added frustration. Because technically, NRS didn't put in the frame data improperly. We just learned it improperly.

But meh, at the end of the day, it's a simple rule of thumb. Normals, add 1. Specials on reversal, don't add 1.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
?

So you think it's ok that this info is not included within the game, in the frame data section but has to actually be researched? Why does the game tell me I can punish a move when I actually can't because of some hidden to the player mechanic?
Well, it's not a "hidden" mechanic, no one is trying to hoodwink you. It's technical stuff that doesn't really belong with the hard data. To me, this is no different than a move having, say, pushblock that makes it negative but unpunishable, or something like that. Very technical and more for us geeks to go over than an error in their method.

I wish it were different too, but considering it's literally as simple as adding a frame, I'm not sure the reason for the conniption fit.
 
Doesn't this just mean that if a move is -10 on block then I can punish it with any move/normal that's 9 frames? Only the buffer time can be done earlier, but it's still a 9f punish?
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
So does this explain why in practice on reversal Canary can party GL b13 but I can't do it myself?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I mean, it's not entirely the dev's fault. Blame the community for the misinformation lol. NRS is the only one I know of listing startup data in the technical sense when everyone else goes by community standard, so I agree it's stupid that they don't, but at the same time, the community should make sure all the technicalities are known for frame data so situations like this make sense instead of causing added frustration. Because technically, NRS didn't put in the frame data improperly. We just learned it improperly.

But meh, at the end of the day, it's a simple rule of thumb. Normals, add 1. Specials on reversal, don't add 1.
It's not the community's fault when every single fighting game is counted like that and they specifically choose to go against that.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Well, it's not a "hidden" mechanic, no one is trying to hoodwink you. It's technical stuff that doesn't really belong with the hard data. To me, this is no different than a move having, say, pushblock that makes it negative but unpunishable, or something like that. Very technical and more for us geeks to go over than an error in their method.

I wish it were different too, but considering it's literally as simple as adding a frame, I'm not sure the reason for the conniption fit.
It's not listed. Where am I going to see this info if I miss this thread? If I were to open TYM tomorrow, how would I know this info? This can literally be solved by simply adding it in the movelist. If I went by what the game tells me, I would be extremely confused as to why I can't punish this -8 move with my -8 S1.

Sure, it's great we know it, unfortunate it has to be this way. But for a second time?