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"I'm In A Nightmare" -- Batman General Discussion Thread

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Fun fact: I've learned recently that there are characters that can go THROUGH Batman's B3.

Catwoman's b3, for example, goes through Batman's b3, even if he meter burns it. Zod can dash through it. Doomsday can dash through it. Bane can as well. I do not know the full list of characters, though.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I can squirt you with a flower and if I delay my gunshot it will hit you as you throw the batarang.
Couldn't he just bait the flower squirt? Or jump over it? I think it can be jumped over. Also, I believe the standing 1 strings Batman has are faster than a lot of Joker's stuff.

On a knockdown, Joker is a nightmare, sure. Same for in the corner. However....
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Couldn't he just bait the flower squirt? Or jump over it? I think it can be jumped over. Also, I believe the standing 1 strings Batman has are faster than a lot of Joker's stuff.

On a knockdown, Joker is a nightmare, sure. Same for in the corner. However....
You can jump over it but it's still a viable safe and + on block wakeup.

Batman has no mixups, you just need to be able to block, see any string with gaps and either parry or full combo punish.

A knockdown in the corner is game over.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
He has no true mix-ups, sure, but he has a lot of + and neutral stuff and he has trait. Staggering, releasing trait, MB batarang off strings - you won't block it all.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
He can also release trait during the gaps. Say he does 11 release trait on a read that you're attempting to poke 113, he now gets a combo. Poking the gaps can be dangerous if Batman has trait.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
He has no true mix-ups, sure, but he has a lot of + and neutral stuff and he has trait. Staggering, releasing trait, MB batarang off strings - you won't block it all.
Trait being the key. Trait is the reason Batman has space control and effective zoning, a Batman who rushes down Joker is wasting his trait covering holes in mixup-less strings
He can also release trait during the gaps. Say he does 11 release trait on a read that you're attempting to poke 113, he now gets a combo. Poking the gaps can be dangerous if Batman has trait.
It's not like I lose anything if I simply block. If Batman loses trait he has zoning just a tad better than Joker's and a much worse footsie and pressure game.

IMO a smart Batman will only ever use bats to zone and crossup once just to evade the inevitable cornering.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Trait being the key. Trait is the reason Batman has space control and effective zoning, a Batman who rushes down Joker is wasting his trait covering holes in mixup-less strings

It's not like I lose anything if I simply block. If Batman loses trait he has zoning just a tad better than Joker's and a much worse footsie and pressure game.

IMO a smart Batman will only ever use bats to zone and crossup once just to evade the inevitable cornering.
Batman's pressure is still better than Joker's, even without the trait. With string staggers, he's left at + or neutral on a lot of things. And the cornering isn't that inevitable at all. I've run this match-up with Emperor Dark(Pretty much the Best Joker), and all Batman really has to do is zone. Joker's gunshots are ass. Complete ass by comparison to Batarang zoning. Delaying gunshots don't really help you all that much.

I will say that Batman shouldn't rush down. He just needs to get a lifelead and turtle and there's not much at all Joker can do. Especially if Batman ends his combos in up grapple, which puts Joker back to nearly full-screen where he has to start his approach all over again.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Now, if Joker spaces his cross-ups properly and nets a few hard knock-downs, it's a bit of a different story. He can win there. But otherwise? Joker is ass.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Batman's pressure is still better than Joker's, even without the trait. With string staggers, he's left at + or neutral on a lot of things. And the cornering isn't that inevitable at all. I've run this match-up with Emperor Dark(Pretty much the Best Joker), and all Batman really has to do is zone. Joker's gunshots are ass. Complete ass by comparison to Batarang zoning. Delaying gunshots don't really help you all that much.

I will say that Batman shouldn't rush down. He just needs to get a lifelead and turtle and there's not much at all Joker can do. Especially if Batman ends his combos in up grapple, which puts Joker back to nearly full-screen where he has to start his approach all over again.
String staggers when almost every one of your strings is duckable or interruptible will only get you killed against a good joker who knows just how many holes Batman's strings have, he has no pressure without bats.. The cornering is inevitable, I've played Arma a few times and been playing UFG and 2 offline batmen since release, I did tell you that batman should zone, joker's gunshots can be delayed to perfectly trade with batarangs when he has a decent lifelead (35%+)

If you wanna talk about advantage then joker has the best J3 in the game that is heavily +, 45% combos that wallcarry for 60% of the stage ( or a 42% online variant with 50% wallcarry ) and crowbar to lock you down once he catches you, batman is also dead if he's caught near the corner due to 100% resets.

Just because you may beat Dark doesn't mean that he's the model/best joker or that other joker players who play this matchup offline often don't know better. Stev0 goes to the break quite regularly.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
String staggers when almost every one of your strings is duckable or interruptible will only get you killed against a good joker who knows just how many holes Batman's strings have, he has no pressure without bats.. The cornering is inevitable, I've played Arma a few times and been playing UFG and 2 offline batmen since release, I did tell you that batman should zone, joker's gunshots can be delayed to perfectly trade with batarangs when he has a decent lifelead (35%+)

If you wanna talk about advantage then joker has the best J3 in the game that is heavily +, 45% combos that wallcarry for 60% of the stage ( or a 42% online variant with 50% wallcarry ) and crowbar to lock you down once he catches you, batman is also dead if he's caught near the corner due to 100% resets.

Just because you may beat Dark doesn't mean that he's the model/best joker or that other joker players who play this matchup offline often don't know better. Stev0 goes to the break quite regularly.
Wait, so you're saying that because Dark plays online that he's not an authority on The Joker? Or that he's less skilled as StevO is? That's kind of the implication, isn't it?

The cornering is not inevitable if Batman is on point with his zoning, especially if his combos are ended as I described. Gunshot delays are cute and all, but only really effective if Joker has the lead to begin with. Otherwise, they either trade or Batman wins if he spends the meter. Meter which, on block, nearly guarantees more zoning. It also largely depends on how Batman string staggers as to whether or not it will be interrupted. For example, Batman has B1 which is neutral on block. He could continue the string, trait cancel(Admittedly not the safest but if Batman can block a Lex Corps Charge after b11 xx trait, he can block a d1), MB Batarang into more pressure/throw(again, back to full screen for Joker), etc. And again, he can use his trait in zoning(although zoning is not my preferred use for trait in most situations because they're pretty poor projectiles). Joker's one-hit gunshot pales in comparison to Batman's two-hitting, mid projectile, let alone with trait assisting.

I've already stated that Joker excels in the MU with his jump attacks and corner game. But Batman can avoid being cornered, and he can put Joker full-screen at the end of every combo and continue zoning.

Joker loses this match-up, Qwark. I know you're a match-up cop and feel the need to convince the community that Joker is secret S tier, but the tools are the tools.

More importantly - why would you be arguing a point difference between 7-3 and 6-4? That's nearly as bad as when Ra Helios tried to argue Catwoman beating Batman in a 5.4-5 match-up when I was insisting that it was even. Are we wanting to argue the .4(or in your case, the 1 point)? Does it really matter?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Wait, so you're saying that because Dark plays online that he's not an authority on The Joker? Or that he's less skilled as StevO is? That's kind of the implication, isn't it?

The cornering is not inevitable if Batman is on point with his zoning, especially if his combos are ended as I described. Gunshot delays are cute and all, but only really effective if Joker has the lead to begin with. Otherwise, they either trade or Batman wins if he spends the meter. Meter which, on block, nearly guarantees more zoning. It also largely depends on how Batman string staggers as to whether or not it will be interrupted. For example, Batman has B1 which is neutral on block. He could continue the string, trait cancel(Admittedly not the safest but if Batman can block a Lex Corps Charge after b11 xx trait, he can block a d1), MB Batarang into more pressure/throw(again, back to full screen for Joker), etc. And again, he can use his trait in zoning(although zoning is not my preferred use for trait in most situations because they're pretty poor projectiles). Joker's one-hit gunshot pales in comparison to Batman's two-hitting, mid projectile, let alone with trait assisting.

I've already stated that Joker excels in the MU with his jump attacks and corner game. But Batman can avoid being cornered, and he can put Joker full-screen at the end of every combo and continue zoning.

Joker loses this match-up, Qwark. I know you're a match-up cop and feel the need to convince the community that Joker is secret S tier, but the tools are the tools.

More importantly - why would you be arguing a point difference between 7-3 and 6-4? That's nearly as bad as when Ra Helios tried to argue Catwoman beating Batman in a 5.4-5 match-up when I was insisting that it was even. Are we wanting to argue the .4(or in your case, the 1 point)? Does it really matter?
Like I specifically said. Just because you beat Dark doesn't mean he's the best, in matchup or character when someone like Stev0 plays arguably the best Batman offline every single week and I play him a bit online and other batmen offline. If you think it implies that he's less skilled because Stevo has more matchup experience then just lol. I also said that if Dark isn't adapting to something you are doing or if you are better than him

Every character in the game gets cornered, Batman is no different, how do you say cornering is not inevitable then go on to say that Joker's corner game affects the matchu[? You can't say he will never be cornered because when all it takes is one combo then that is false. You will end up cornered at least one or twice and if Joker catches you then it's over.

So basically you're just gonna do trait cancels, glad we moved on to more reasonable arguements. Like I said, Batman barely has mixups, if a Batman player isn't using bats to hold Joker in place for more projectile chip and zoning then he's playing the matchup wrong, this game has no chip when it comes to normals, I see no danger in blocking. 2 hits with batarangs don't matter, Joker doesn't armour through.

I know he loses the matchup, and if matchup cop is actually informing people of what my character does in offline play then so be it. I consider the matchup 4-6 with extensive MU XP since launch and playing almost all batmen, so does every other Joker player in our forums.

No, we're not arguing for points, we're arguing whether this is a slightly disadvantaged matchup or a very difficult one to beat. I think that is a different worth arguing for since matchups have been important for characters since the start of fighting games.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Like I specifically said. Just because you beat Dark doesn't mean he's the best, in matchup or character when someone like Stev0 plays arguably the best Batman offline every single week and I play him a bit online and other batmen offline. If you think it implies that he's less skilled because Stevo has more matchup experience then just lol. I also said that if Dark isn't adapting to something you are doing or if you are better than him

Every character in the game gets cornered, Batman is no different, how do you say cornering is not inevitable then go on to say that Joker's corner game affects the matchu[? You can't say he will never be cornered because when all it takes is one combo then that is false. You will end up cornered at least one or twice and if Joker catches you then it's over.

So basically you're just gonna do trait cancels, glad we moved on to more reasonable arguements. Like I said, Batman barely has mixups, if a Batman player isn't using bats to hold Joker in place for more projectile chip and zoning then he's playing the matchup wrong, this game has no chip when it comes to normals, I see no danger in blocking. 2 hits with batarangs don't matter, Joker doesn't armour through.

I know he loses the matchup, and if matchup cop is actually informing people of what my character does in offline play then so be it. I consider the matchup 4-6 with extensive MU XP since launch and playing almost all batmen, so does every other Joker player in our forums.

No, we're not arguing for points, we're arguing whether this is a slightly disadvantaged matchup or a very difficult one to beat. I think that is a different worth arguing for since matchups have been important for characters since the start of fighting games.
I enver said that Batman would never be cornered. I said that it is not inevitable. There is a difference. It can happen, but it can just as easily not happen. Also, you're arguing the number in the wrong thread. You should continue this where the CURRENT discussions are happening in King's thread. He tagged you and everything.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I enver said that Batman would never be cornered. I said that it is not inevitable. There is a difference. It can happen, but it can just as easily not happen. Also, you're arguing the number in the wrong thread. You should continue this where the CURRENT discussions are happening in King's thread. He tagged you and everything.
Yeah. I agreed.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
But now that we're discussing the meaning of words....

...If you say that the cornering is INEVITABLE, which means that it WILL HAPPEN...and you've clearly made your case(that I've agreed with) that Joker wins in the corner....

...Doesn't that mean what you're actually saying is that The Joker wins?
 

blues686

Black lantern
Omg is it me or is everyone online is picking scorpion to spam teleport and run away fire (on ps4)..

Also seen alot of bane and doomsday online.. And batgirl.. Um why?! Shit is annoying