I Sense Your Dread- Scarecrow Match Up Discussion

[Ragnarök Tyr]

Since launch I believe Scarecrow's potentially hardest match ups are the following:

Deadshot - In the neutral more than anything. If Scarecrow can corner him then the match up evens out a bit.

Darkseid - Same idea as Deadshot.

Batman - The same, but Crow's less than stellar back dash makes dashing out of some cancels/MB Batarangs a non-usable or at least not very consistent option.

Red Hood - In my opinion RH beats Scarecrow in the neutral considerably and the mine setups can stop you from using any real wake up options.

Super Girl - So I've been told, but none of the S.G players I've run into have had a solid grasp of the S.C match up so this one needs a bit more exploring (from my perspective) others may share their experiences.

Wonder Woman - I've always been a believer that this is 5-5 but lately I've seen the cracks in the match up. So I'm willing to consent that it could be a 6-4 in WoWo's favor.

Captain Cold - As mentioned earlier, if Crow can stay on top of Cold then he really doesn't struggle all that much. It's only when Cold gets into his Grenade/Trait loop that the match up falls apart. Could be 6-4, could be 5-5. More study is needed.

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

Since launch I believe Scarecrow's potentially hardest match ups are the following:

Deadshot - In the neutral more than anything. If Scarecrow can corner him then the match up evens out a bit.

Darkseid - Same idea as Deadshot.

Batman - The same, but Crow's less than stellar back dash makes dashing out of some cancels/MB Batarangs a non-usable or at least not very consistent option.

Red Hood - In my opinion RH beats Scarecrow in the neutral considerably and the mine setups can stop you from using any real wake up options.

Super Girl - So I've been told, but none of the S.G players I've run into have had a solid grasp of the S.C match up so this one needs a bit more exploring (from my perspective) others may share their experiences.

Wonder Woman - I've always been a believer that this is 5-5 but lately I've seen the cracks in the match up. So I'm willing to consent that it could be a 6-4 in WoWo's favor.

Captain Cold - As mentioned earlier, if Crow can stay on top of Cold then he really doesn't struggle all that much. It's only when Cold gets into his Grenade/Trait loop that the match up falls apart. Could be 6-4, could be 5-5. More study is needed.

Good analysis. I agree with pretty much all - although I don't believe Supergirl is a bad matchup. I'm not sure why it would be in her favor. Scarecrow is more than capable of handling her close up, and her zoning isn’t too much of an obstacle. I'm also not convinced about Wonder Woman - I know it's challenging, but I think it’s hard to confirm if it’s in her favor.

I think there are a few bad matchups you didn’t mention:

Green Arrow: his zoning and keep-away game is too much for Scarecrow. Locking this character down is an extreme challenge. On top of his keep away, Arrow’s wakeup game is extremely annoying. One of Scarecrow’s worst matchups.

Sub Zero: The clone. Very hard to deal with. Although Scarecrow has a few normals that travel through the clone, I don’t find it to be enough.

Starfire: Zoning zoning zoning. Her solid wakeup game also has to be respected. Once we get her in the corner it’s winnable.

 

[jmt]

Wowo 100% beats crow

 

[SaucyD0ge]

Good analysis. I agree with pretty much all - although I don't believe Supergirl is a bad matchup. I'm not sure why it would be in her favor. Scarecrow is more than capable of handling her close up, and her zoning isn’t too much of an obstacle. I'm also not convinced about Wonder Woman - I know it's challenging, but I think it’s hard to confirm if it’s in her favor.

I think there are a few bad matchups you didn’t mention:

Green Arrow: his zoning and keep-away game is too much for Scarecrow. Locking this character down is an extreme challenge. On top of his keep away, Arrow’s wakeup game is extremely annoying. One of Scarecrow’s worst matchups.

Sub Zero: The clone. Very hard to deal with. Although Scarecrow has a few normals that travel through the clone, I don’t find it to be enough.

Starfire: Zoning zoning zoning. Her solid wakeup game also has to be respected. Once we get her in the corner it’s winnable.

Jump3 can hit any clones under you, if Sub wants to turtle behind clone, using f3 seems like a valid option.

 

[MartianMagic]

Drawing a blank here: what are some punishes for Red Hood's lunge wakeup on block? If you could cover options for MB, back lunge, and in the corner I will love you for ever

 

[foxof42]

Got you, bro. Punish, hell no. It's a dirty lie that MB lethal lunge is -9 on hit lol, even with pushback. But stuff? Absolutely. These options are all off the hkd from a cmd grab (schizophrenia).

Midscreen:

Lethal lunge is stuffed by 11, 22, or db3. You can also db2, but MBing isn't worth it and it puts you in an awkward situation afterwards. 11 is the best option and is easily confirmed into db1. If you don't have meter to spend, you can confirm 22 into bf2 for a meterless plus 20 restand at sweep distance or finish the string (22F3) for corner carry. Or even just 11, pause, command grab. You're your own man.

Fatal drop (his PROPER wakeup) can be full combo punished if you commit to a massively unsafe teleport. DU, 11db1 into a bnb. If you want them in the corner, you can do a side switch combo. A really easy, consistent one is

11db1(MB), B3, walk forward, F13df3

The F13 will cross under and the df3 will gas blast them back towards the corner. There's definitely more optimal stuff out there, but this one will only take a fee minutes in practice mode to master.

It's worth mentioning that every option to stuff lethal lunge gets punished by fatal drop. Condition and read.

Corner:

11 will stuff lethal lunge and is very easy to confirm into db1. You can also 22 but I DON'T recommend it, you pretty much have to be frame perfect and you'll likely just awkwardly trade. You can also easily just D1 it, which is the safest option, but it's harder to confirm.

Fatal drop will likely only be used in the corner by a RH player if you have consistently stuffed lethal lunge and they feel they have absolutely no options left. A D1 check is absolutely the best way to approach this. DO NOT attempt to cancel into anything as his gunshots stuff every special cancel that can follow. If they wake up blocking (say what?), you can apply his mix-ups. If you see them flying over you, just pause a moment and then 11 or 22 into your corner bnb. Again, I'd only check them if you have them thoroughly conditioned.

Hope this helps! And as a shameless plug, you can see some of all this working and failing in this set:

 

[foxof42]

Drawing a blank here: what are some punishes for Red Hood's lunge wakeup on block? If you could cover options for MB, back lunge, and in the corner I will love you for ever

Just realized you were asking about punishing the vanilla without meter burn. His buttons are too far reaching and slow or fast and stubby. BUT, a db2 will punish it clean! You can meter burn for either

Db2 MB F2dbf3 (238)
Or
Db2 MB F23bf1 (211)

Now depending on your range, you might have to take a quick frame of a step forward to either of these. At a certain range, you'll only be able to get F2db3, and at a range beyond that, nothing at all. At that range, db3 is your only option.

D2 is not really an option. Why? Idk man, something about the gravity. F2 doesn't connect off it, honestly feels glitchy. Basically you'll just get the pop up but it'll be smaller than it should be and you can't follow up.

If you miss your punish, consider either a sweep if they're walking back waiting for you to jump or use his F1 to catch a back dash. Or eat a D2 yourself if they're a scrubby mashy jerk.

MB you straight up ain't punishing ever, GG's.

The corner is by far the easiest because they land right in front of you. You can either 11 or D1 into db1. The 11 sometimes whiffs over his head completely though, so swallow your pride and D1 punish, it's only about 20 damage difference and it's easy and guaranteed. Consistency over swag any day IMO.

But honestly, screw all this because you don't want to be blocking on their wakeup. You want to be making them terrified to wakeup at all. And if it happens in neutral and they don't meter burn, I'd just db3 because it gets them to the corner anyways.

 

[MartianMagic]

You sir, are a god send!

I never use 11 much so I think I need to work that in. And I didn't realize lethal lunge and fatal drop were different moves. I thought they were same move different direction, so now I feel dumb lol. Looks like stuffing it is!

Cool matches tho, u play crow kinda like me. I think the matchup must be 6-4 cause you had similar issues getting in and staying in. Red hood has so many mixups it's hard to avoid his dmg at pretty much every distance.

You do a lot more DB3 tho, and do a lot of mid air ones too. Can I ask why? My only guess is meter build... maybe as a safe check? I avoid it cause the dmg isn't much and it pushes the opponent too far away

Thanks again and sick excecution on that last lifebar!

 

[foxof42]

You sir, are a god send!

I never use 11 much so I think I need to work that in. And I didn't realize lethal lunge and fatal drop were different moves. I thought they were same move different direction, so now I feel dumb lol. Looks like stuffing it is!

Cool matches tho, u play crow kinda like me. I think the matchup must be 6-4 cause you had similar issues getting in and staying in. Red hood has so many mixups it's hard to avoid his dmg at pretty much every distance.

You do a lot more DB3 tho, and do a lot of mid air ones too. Can I ask why? My only guess is meter build... maybe as a safe check? I avoid it cause the dmg isn't much and it pushes the opponent too far away

Thanks again and sick excecution on that last lifebar!

Glad to help and thanks for the props.

About db3, mostly just those reasons, yeah, and if I feel the need to frame trap from D1 meterlessly it gets the job done safely. (Can't D1-D1 Richard, his reactions are just disgusting.) RH's D1 is too stubby to be able to punish it but Firestorm's, for instance... Gotta be more careful. I could probably stand to do less jump in db3 through zoning as it doesn't always pay off and the meter build isn't great.

 

[MartianMagic]

Ok sounds just like a difference in styles, just making sure I'm not missing anything huge.

What I'm working on now is f-dashing in. Took my a long time playing SC to realize how critical it is to his play. Spent too much time in the lab, but I could never actually use my cool combos because duck walking is dumb. Now I'm looking for it every chance I get a lil happy inside when I get a free f-dash lol

 

[foxof42]

Seriously! It's necessary to put yourself in that F2 range that's uncomfortable for your opponent. F1 can be a little yolo if you're always whiffing the first hit... Lost too many matches like that. :/

 

[foxof42]

I love his dash btw, it's like he gorilla lopes across the screen

 

[Toonstrack]

Im going back to Scarecrow for the legendary multiverse. How do these mu ratios get determined? How do I test them?

 

[foxof42]

Getting back on topic, I personally think Scarecrow does well against Supergirl. He can challenge her gaps with relative consistency and isn't at the same risk of chipout as true zoners or even the likes of Firestorm or Aquaman. Her meter build in neutral isn't that great, so her ability to lame out only amounts to attempting to create an opening. If you can anticipate her laser, walking to the corner is viable and you have little to lose from being cautious.

Her instant air dash is a problem for everyone, but if it's truly low to the ground a standing 1 should catch. Other than that, she should fear too much air mobility given our D2 and jump 2.

Once she's in the corner, Scarecrow has a fantastic option: D2-dbf3. They stuff her teleport and often her proper wakeup as well. I've found when her wakeup isn't stuffed, the cancel will often give db3 instead due to the i frames with zero block stun. The result is an option select that will give you a combo if they wake up. If they delay wakeup, block and punish a gap. If they begin respecting, mix with D2-db2.

Midscreen, the HKD from dbf3 is amazing for Oki. F2 stuffs every wakeup INCLUDING teleport and backdashes. If they delay wakeup, the F2 recovers fast enough to guarantee a D1 at point blank which can be confirmed to a combo.

Basically, her neutral is dominant but not actually that threatening and any b12 into breath gives an opening for a free combo. Even b12 MB lasers will just trade so good luck conditioning a Scarecrow player to not challenge lol.

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

My Scarecrow matchup chart:

Aquaman 4-6
Atrocitus 5-5
Bane 5-5
Batman 3-7
Black Adam 6-4
Black Canary 6-4
Black Manta 6-4?
Blue Beetle 5-5
Brainiac 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Captain Cold 4-6 (maybe 5-5)
Catwoman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Cheetah ?
Cyborg 5-5
Darkseid 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Deadshot 3-7
Dr. Fate 5-5
Firestorm 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Flash 6-4
Gorilla Grodd 6-4
Green Arrow 3-7 (worst matchup imo)
Green Lantern 5-5
Harley Quinn 5-5
Joker ?
Poison Ivy 5-5
Raiden ?
Red Hood 4-6 (maybe 3-7)
Robin 5-5
Starfire 3-7
Sub Zero 4-6
Supergirl 5-5
Superman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Swamp Thing 6-4
Wonder Woman 4-6 (maybe 3-7)

Nine losing matchups and six winning. The Cheetah matchup is hard to say. The matchup seems too chaotic to put a number on. Opinions are welcome. Joker and Raiden I don’t have enough experience.

 

[foxof42]

Mostly agree with a few exceptions. I think Aquaman is a 5/5 just as much as Poison Ivy. In fact, I'd be more tempted to put Poison Ivy as a 4/6 than Aquaman. Brainiac, Catwoman, Joker, and Firestorm are all 4/6s. (Joker's zoning is actually quite good against Crow.) In my experience, Cheetah and Superman are both a 6/4. Superman is tough for the cast, but SC has a bundle of very good answers and can OS his wakeup. Wakeup game plays a big part in how I view the matchup. Atrocitus feels like a 4/6 in neutral and a 7/3 in the corner. Same with Harley - a standing 3 stuffs both her options making her a bit free on wakeup.

 

[SnowboardRX]

Hope this helps! And as a shameless plug, you can see some of all this working and failing in this set:

This was so satisfying to watch. Red Hood is seriously the worst against Crow. Have to be so patient.

 

[MartianMagic]

My Scarecrow matchup chart:

Aquaman 4-6
Atrocitus 5-5
Bane 5-5
Batman 3-7
Black Adam 6-4
Black Canary 6-4
Black Manta 6-4?
Blue Beetle 5-5
Brainiac 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Captain Cold 4-6 (maybe 5-5)
Catwoman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Cheetah ?
Cyborg 5-5
Darkseid 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Deadshot 3-7
Dr. Fate 5-5
Firestorm 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Flash 6-4
Gorilla Grodd 6-4
Green Arrow 3-7 (worst matchup imo)
Green Lantern 5-5
Harley Quinn 5-5
Joker ?
Poison Ivy 5-5
Raiden ?
Red Hood 4-6 (maybe 3-7)
Robin 5-5
Starfire 3-7
Sub Zero 4-6
Supergirl 5-5
Superman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Swamp Thing 6-4
Wonder Woman 4-6 (maybe 3-7)

Nine losing matchups and six winning. The Cheetah matchup is hard to say. The matchup seems too chaotic to put a number on. Opinions are welcome. Joker and Raiden I don’t have enough experience.

Gotta admit this is a pretty good matchup list. Such a bummer we have 3-7 to multiple very popular characters. Couple I disagree with:
- WW: Sure you gotta be patient, but very winnable. I find these turn into slug fest hit for hit matches, as both characters have good wakeups to prevent follow up pressure. I call it at 5-5.

- Fate: I think fate is 4-6. Can't really get on him without taking a lot of chip or yolo-port. The match will be at his pace.

-Firestorm: probably my biggest disagreement. How on earth would this be our favor? He has decent projectile game and footsies and great combo conversions. Or he can play rushdown, in which case he has much better mixups and 50/50. I put at 4-6.

- Bane: not a ton of mu experience, but I think SC wins 6-4 due to better footsies. Equal dmg and combos. Both have great corner pressure. We just outrange him though.

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

WW: I am confident now that WW is a losing matchup. It can be nearly impossible to get in with shield toss and lasso. I'm not sure you've played one good enough yet.

Fate: you can make a case for it being 4-6. I think it's 5-5 because he struggles when we lock him down. We can also fear-nado is orbs. I don't think we have it as bad as other characters.

Firestorm: Good points. The only reason I said this was maybe a 6-4 is because other scarecrow players have told me they thought it was. I think it's a 5-5. What you mentioned is all true. I think he struggles hard against us when we get him cornered. His wakeup can simply be anticipated. With his near full screen checks, high damage, and resets though, it's a tough call.

Bane: while we do have better range, Bane can destroy us on knockdown. Scarecrow's single-hitting wakeup and backdash can make it hard to stop Bane from doing what he does best: owning people on knockdown. This has to be a 5-5

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

Mostly agree with a few exceptions. I think Aquaman is a 5/5 just as much as Poison Ivy. In fact, I'd be more tempted to put Poison Ivy as a 4/6 than Aquaman. Brainiac, Catwoman, Joker, and Firestorm are all 4/6s. (Joker's zoning is actually quite good against Crow.) In my experience, Cheetah and Superman are both a 6/4. Superman is tough for the cast, but SC has a bundle of very good answers and can OS his wakeup. Wakeup game plays a big part in how I view the matchup. Atrocitus feels like a 4/6 in neutral and a 7/3 in the corner. Same with Harley - a standing 3 stuffs both her options making her a bit free on wakeup.

Aquaman's defense feels too strong to call it even. He is effective from the range we prefer to be at. He constantly checks Crow with FTD, b2, b1, and mb b3. Approaching seems very difficult. Feels similar to the WW matchup, imo.

I think you can make a case for Poison Ivy being a 4-6.

I'm curious as to why you have Brainiac as a 4-6. This matchup has never seemed losing to me. What makes it losing?

Superman being a 6-4 seems crazy to me. If he didn't have good zoning with air lasers, maybe I'd agree. This matchup always feels like an uphill battle.

Good to know about Harley. Didn't know s3 stuffs her wakeups.

 

[SeeJWolf]

Hey guys I'm a batman player but the bman boards aren't as active as you guys (13 pages? Props.) Anyways I was wondering why batman beats crow 7-3. I know zoning is tough for crow but what else? Any tips are appreciated;3


Also how do you combat a blocked d1 into command grab?

 

[MartianMagic]

Hey guys I'm a batman player but the bman boards aren't as active as you guys (13 pages? Props.) Anyways I was wondering why batman beats crow 7-3. I know zoning is tough for crow but what else? Any tips are appreciated;3


Also how do you combat a blocked d1 into command grab?

*thinks to self.... hmmm should I help the batman....." ok fine.

So duck waking batman to the corner is not really a huge deal, so I think the zoning is more of an annoyance that tests patience.

The main problem in my opinion is the trait bats. You can just punish so darn easy on many blocked strings that many other characters cannot. At SC best range (jump in and F2 range), bats can either release trait and jump in, or throw batrang. Both options are completely safe for bats and can result in combo. Batman can put fear into SC even at SC preferred range. Add that to standing resets and 50/50 J2 and better meter build and that's a wrap! I could go on but it's truely a matchup from hell.

If your reflexes are tight, you can time a jump after the D1 the grab will wiff and you can full combo punish. The poor mans version is just to let the D1 hit you and the throw will not connect. However, just watch out for the D1 into chain full combo. Also a good crow will mix in raw command grab without the D1, so it's kinda our 50/50 mindgame.

On a more general note, if he is doing this after MB fear gas, just back dash or push block.

*to self again: nice job Martian, just created yet another Batman you can't beat online. Really great*

 

[foxof42]

I don't think Superman zoning is that bad. The only tough part is if they start mixing in his dash punch. If they don't, it tends to give me an opening more than it does them.

 

[ShrekForXbox]

My Scarecrow matchup chart:

Aquaman 4-6
Atrocitus 5-5
Bane 5-5
Batman 3-7
Black Adam 6-4
Black Canary 6-4
Black Manta 6-4?
Blue Beetle 5-5
Brainiac 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Captain Cold 4-6 (maybe 5-5)
Catwoman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Cheetah ?
Cyborg 5-5
Darkseid 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Deadshot 3-7
Dr. Fate 5-5
Firestorm 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Flash 6-4
Gorilla Grodd 6-4
Green Arrow 3-7 (worst matchup imo)
Green Lantern 5-5
Harley Quinn 5-5
Joker ?
Poison Ivy 5-5
Raiden ?
Red Hood 4-6 (maybe 3-7)
Robin 5-5
Starfire 3-7
Sub Zero 4-6
Supergirl 5-5
Superman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Swamp Thing 6-4
Wonder Woman 4-6 (maybe 3-7)

Nine losing matchups and six winning. The Cheetah matchup is hard to say. The matchup seems too chaotic to put a number on. Opinions are welcome. Joker and Raiden I don’t have enough experience.

I disagree with the following:

Batman and Deadshot - These are definitely bad MU’s but I don’t think Crow honestly has any 7-3’s as of now. Although these are definitely two of his worst.

Aquaman - Absolutely a 5-5. Aquaman isn’t good enough anymore to wreck Crow. Our footsies are better overall and we outdamage him by a lot.

Starfire - 4-6 at worst once again. Zoning is just annoying as hell with Crow.

Sub Zero - Really don’t get this one. We are prob Sub’s #1 worst MU because we don’t have to give a single fuck about clone.

Rest is pretty good. (Also Manta definitely feels like a 6-4.)

 

[Nobus3r1]

My Scarecrow matchup chart:

Aquaman 4-6 5-5
Atrocitus 5-5
Bane 5-5
Batman 3-7
Black Adam 6-4
Black Canary 6-4
Black Manta 6-4?
Blue Beetle 5-5
Brainiac 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Captain Cold 4-6 (maybe 5-5)
Catwoman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Cheetah ? 5-5
Cyborg 5-5
Darkseid 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Deadshot 3-7
Dr. Fate 5-5
Firestorm 5-5 (maybe 6-4)
Flash 6-4
Gorilla Grodd 6-4
Green Arrow 3-7 (worst matchup imo)
Green Lantern 5-5
Harley Quinn 5-5
Joker ? 4-6
Poison Ivy 5-5
Raiden ?
Red Hood 4-6 (maybe 3-7)
Robin 5-5
Starfire 3-7
Sub Zero 4-6
Supergirl 5-5
Superman 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Swamp Thing 6-4
Wonder Woman 4-6 (maybe 3-7)

I mostly agree (hopefully edits are obvious). I would say that Starfire is basically Deadshot Lite in most respects to how to approach her. She hits harder and is more mobile but her projectile game isn't as good her mixup game pales in comparison to his.

Fighting Wonder Woman sucks but it isn't as bad as dealing with the matchups listed a 3-7s.

That said, I might put Red Hood as being a worse matchup than Green Arrow as the former shares many of the projectile issues that make the latter problematic while also being substantially more mobile.

I also think that Firestorm may be a bit worse than advertised as Scarecrows teleport makes him more susceptible to some of Firestorms tricks than other characters.