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Match-up Discussion I really need help right now.

Durango

Enhancer
I just lost 10-1 against Kirbopher13. He was able to beat my Sub-Zero using Nightworlf, Baraka, Scorpion, Rain, Sektor, Cyrax, Liu Kang, Reptile, Ermac, and sadly, a mirror Sub-Zero. I couldn't keep up, I feel like he wasn't even trying. He could just backstep me and bait-punish all my dash-ins, jump-ins, and even clone attempts. Punishing him with slide from afar was nigh impossible to do, because he always saw it coming and low-blocked it (save for very few occasions), I couldn't get in, and when I did, he was usually blocking.

I think my two biggest problems are I can't punish and I have no options at long-range. When I have him, I'm normally going to 22 him and hope for a hit confirm, or d4 and try 22 from there. He has a zillion options, my options feel limited. Are there any noteworthy punishments I can use on these characters so I don't lose next time? I wish I had something to go on to show, but like I said, I couldn't punish him for anything. I didn't have a chance.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have never lost this badly to anyone before.
 

KIllaByte

PSN: playakid700. Local name: BFGC MonkeyBizness
I just lost 10-1 against Kirbopher13. He was able to beat my Sub-Zero using Nightworlf, Baraka, Scorpion, Rain, Sektor, Cyrax, Liu Kang, Reptile, Ermac, and sadly, a mirror Sub-Zero. I couldn't keep up, I feel like he wasn't even trying. He could just backstep me and bait-punish all my dash-ins, jump-ins, and even clone attempts. Punishing him with slide from afar was nigh impossible to do, because he always saw it coming and low-blocked it (save for very few occasions), I couldn't get in, and when I did, he was usually blocking.

I think my two biggest problems are I can't punish and I have no options at long-range. When I have him, I'm normally going to 22 him and hope for a hit confirm, or d4 and try 22 from there. He has a zillion options, my options feel limited. Are there any noteworthy punishments I can use on these characters so I don't lose next time? I wish I had something to go on to show, but like I said, I couldn't punish him for anything. I didn't have a chance.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have never lost this badly to anyone before.
Off of your 2, 2s, end with 2, 2, 4, ice clone, to keep yourself safe, and keep your health up.
Only the elite will interrupt your strings online.
 

KIllaByte

PSN: playakid700. Local name: BFGC MonkeyBizness
Take the opponent to the corner.
If they're rushdown, back up.
If they're zoners, chase them there- occasionally attempting a trade of projectiles with your iceball, used unpredictably, without rhythm or pattern.
 

KIllaByte

PSN: playakid700. Local name: BFGC MonkeyBizness
A person beating you with a lot of characters is not embarrassing as you think it to be- it simply means your opponent has adjusted well to your exact play-style, and he is not giving you an opportunity to adjust to any of his, as he continues to switch characters.
Grind one matchup, and eventually you'll get a win.
 

Durango

Enhancer
He was doing just that. D3s to start a link on me after a 22. This is nowhere near as safe as it seemed against the 1000 other people I've faced online. He's the first to break it. I started doing 22 because I was trying to get a mixup and 212/224 wasn't helping like I was hoping it would. He was straight up zoning me, though. Always punishing my approach with Nightwolf's shoulder ram, Baraka's dash-claw, Scorpion's spear, etc. I couldn't get close properly, and Nightwolf/Scorpion/Rain all have attacks that crush guard if I keep dash-blocking towards him.

Also, he plays an even better corner game with Sub-Zero than I do. I couldn't even think of getting out.
 

KIllaByte

PSN: playakid700. Local name: BFGC MonkeyBizness
He was doing just that. D3s to start a link on me after a 22. This is nowhere near as safe as it seemed against the 1000 other people I've faced online. He's the first to break it. I started doing 22 because I was trying to get a mixup and 212/224 wasn't helping like I was hoping it would. He was straight up zoning me, though. Always punishing my approach with Nightwolf's shoulder ram, Baraka's dash-claw, Scorpion's spear, etc. I couldn't get close properly, and Nightwolf/Scorpion/Rain all have attacks that crush guard if I keep dash-blocking towards him.

Also, he plays an even better corner game with Sub-Zero than I do. I couldn't even think of getting out.
You're not mentioning throws as one of the many tools you've tried. Those will keep your opponent honest, and score you unbreakable 12%s.
 

Durango

Enhancer
Actually, I threw a couple after a D3 in the corner. Not often, because he normally responded with a D1, D3, or jumping away, so I rarely used a grab for that very reason.
 

KIllaByte

PSN: playakid700. Local name: BFGC MonkeyBizness
Actually, I threw a couple after a D3 in the corner. Not often, because he normally responded with a D1, D3, or jumping away, so I rarely used a grab for that very reason.
maybe something like 2, 2, throw, or 2, 2, ice clone to get away if you're being blocked?
Sub's slide also has armor, might help you get in to attempt some of this.
 

ryublaze

Noob
Premium Supporter
Sounds like you were trying to rush down too much cuz of the whiff punishing. Don't try to punish things with slide unless you know you can punish them like going underneath Sonya's rings. Punishing isn't everything though, sometimes getting in for just a blockstring is worth it. You want to get in with D4 then if D4 hits you go in for 21. And also you can cancel d4 into clone so they can't approach you after you d4 which means you can move in for another d4 or whatever after a d4 is blocked.

Nightwolf d4 the crap out of him it'll beat his shoulder charge, or just duck his shoulder and punish with 2,2 combo. Don't throw ice balls and don't get carried away with ice clones or he'll just lightning you or whatever.

Baraka shouldn't be too bad either. Trade sparks with Ice ball, watch out when he has meter cuz he can ex blade charge through ice ball and clone.

Scorpion just dash in and d4 him and don't jump. Get him to the corner and also don't throw ice balls when he has meter.

Rain watch out for lightning and his armored moves. Like Nightwolf don't get carried away with ice clone. I have a hard time with Rain myself but that's just me.

Sektor don't throw ice balls at long range. Try to bait a flame thrower and punish with ice ball. Get him to the corner.

Cyrax might be a bit tough just gotta play it safe and don't get hit by net lol. I suck against Cyrax too.

Liu Kang zoning is manageable just push him to the corner while he's zoning you and keep him there.

Reptile zoning shouldn't be too bad. I don't remember but you might be able to EX freeze him. Again get him to the corner.

Ermac you just have to dash block properly and you can probably trade ice ball with force push or his projectile.

I haven't played this game in forever so my tips probably aren't good.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
He was doing just that. D3s to start a link on me after a 22. This is nowhere near as safe as it seemed against the 1000 other people I've faced online. He's the first to break it. I started doing 22 because I was trying to get a mixup and 212/224 wasn't helping like I was hoping it would. He was straight up zoning me, though. Always punishing my approach with Nightwolf's shoulder ram, Baraka's dash-claw, Scorpion's spear, etc. I couldn't get close properly, and Nightwolf/Scorpion/Rain all have attacks that crush guard if I keep dash-blocking towards him.

Also, he plays an even better corner game with Sub-Zero than I do. I couldn't even think of getting out.
None of those characters are really problem characters for Subzero. MK9 is admittedly pretty dead and I haven't played it seriously in a very long time but Il try to dig into the deep recesses of my brain here and remember some stuff. Nightwolfs shoulder charge is duckable and full combo punishable on whiff. Like wise his EX shoulder charge while being two hits and the 2nd hit is overhead the gap between the first hit and the 2nd is so huge that you can full combo punish it before the overhead hit even comes out.

Nightwolf has virtually no answer to Subs D4. You can almost beat him with that move alone(well not really but it is damn good against Nightwolf) He cannot rushdown for shit, His best strategy is to back up and look for opportunities to shoulder charge you and lightning you. Initiating any of those options is risky for him though. As I said shoulder is duckable and lightning is jumpable and can be full combo punished from almost all the way across the screen. Even though shoulder is fast its really risky because your going to be ducking a lot while your advancing. He may catch you with a lighting from time to time but the key for him will be knowing how many times to go to the well on that, because if he does it to much your gonna jump in and brutalize him for it.
Always approach him slowly and methodically. You control the pace of this match not him. Don't get crazy and jump in on him. His Axe is a great AA and its free for him. Nightwolf really has no choice but to back up and back up eventually cornering himself and then its game over. The challenge for you is keeping patient enough to walk him there and not panic if he catches you with the occasional lighting or Shoulder charge. Just know your going to get it all back once you put him in jail in the corner.

Scorpions spear is about the riskiest move in the game. I think it has about 10 years of recovery on whiff. Duck that move twice and he will never throw it out there again. Scorpion is a lot like like Nightwolf, but Scorp is a far better character. But the approach is the same. Methodically work him into the corner. You will eat a few hellfires along the way. Who cares. Eat that shit and keep moving forward. Subzero is like Godzilla. Move forward at all times. Godzilla doesn't panic when the Japanese military starts firing missles at him. He just keeps on a coming. That's what Subzero players have to do. Once you put him in the corner the only way out he really has is EX teleport if he has the meter(and he probably will) EX tele can be interrupted between the first and 2nd hits as long as your ducking. Some Scorpion players will try to use EX leg takedown because its safer than teleporting, but that doesn't get them out of the corner and as long as you block it you can just 2,1,2,clone them right back in the corner(Look out for the occasional EX leg takedown followed by another EX leg takedown if they are really desperate to get out of the corner and have the meter to burn)

Baraka is all about his meter. If he has it your gonna have to work a lot harder than if hes doesn't. Baraka cannot do shit to you without meter. He has no way to get by the ice clone without it. And the only way for him to build meter is to throw blade sparks, which have a ton of recovery. Subzero can camp like a motherfucker in this match. Drop Ice clone, throw ice blast, this builds meter for you and prevents Baraka from building his own meter because he cant throw Blade sparks without trading with ice blast and getting full combed for his trouble. And yet he has to throw blade sparks because its the only way to build meter and he has to build meter to get by the ice clone. This so hopeless for Baraka that he will quickly realize that it will be better to try a well timed jump in over the clone. As long as you look for this and AA him with your standing 2(godly anti air) It should be rinse and repeat against Baraka. At some point he will get meter though. If for no other reason than your hitting him. Once he has meter he can EX charge though the clone. As long as he spaces it right it is safe. Who cares? Whoop de do. Its safe but not advantage so you can just 2,1,2 clone again and again he has a clone in his face and he just blew a bar of meter for nothing. The key to this match is good spacing and footsies and the patience to be lame as hell. As long as you have the lifelead dont ever advance toward Baraka. Camp on that lifelead and make him try crazy shit to get in on you. The clock is your friend in this match to. Get the lifelead and just camp on it. He has to beat you, not the other way around. Run that clock down, always keep a clone up and fire that ice blast to prevent him from throwing blade sparks to build meter.

If your losing to another Subzero then he is just plain better than you. Sub vs Sub is the ultimate chess match. The lamer player will win. Who can be the most patient, who can be lamer, and who can cling to that 1% lifelead is the most important thing.

Hope some of this helps.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
What are the best options after a d4, hit or block?
On hit if hes standing your at like +8 advantage. Its a guaranteed 2,1,2 clone/2,2,4 clone or 2,1,4, clone. If hes ducking your not at as much advanatage(I think only +1) so I would just pump another D4 in there. If he blocks it you can D4 into clone. All of Nightwolfs strings move him forward so if he tries to go on the offensive he will run into the clone. Hence why D4 is so good against nightwolf. Even if he blocks it he basically has to stand there and take it over and over as going on the offensive could mean running into a clone.
 

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
Mix it up with your play. Subzero is great at turtling. Do as RedRaptor says and use d4 as your primary 'get in' tool. Subzero iirc has the fastest d4 in the game. (or atleast matches the fastest ones). Establish pressure with 2,1 and and 2,1,2 ice clone <- safer than 2,1,4 ice clone. 2,1 throw is also good after conditioning with several 2,1's and 2,1,2's. Try and establish a life lead and then hang back behind your clones and get some ice balls out.

Are you familiar with sub zero bnbs? If you freeze someone far enough to where you can't get a regular bnb combo off use b1,2,1. The string gives massive stun (don't remember the frame data off the top of my head) but it lets you continue pressure with 2,1.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
Mix it up with your play. Subzero is great at turtling. Do as RedRaptor says and use d4 as your primary 'get in' tool. Subzero iirc has the fastest d4 in the game. (or atleast matches the fastest ones). Establish pressure with 2,1 and and 2,1,2 ice clone <- safer than 2,1,4 ice clone.
Actually 2,1,4 clone is safer. 2,1,2 can be interrupted by armor moves between the 1 and the 2. Kung Lao can actually naked spin between 2,1,2 if his timing is perfect. But 2,1,2 clone is better for positioning because it leaves you closer to the clone for follow up pressure. I used to use 2,1,4 a lot to blow up people trying to armor through 2,1,2. After you blow them up for trying then you can go back to using 2,1,2 because now they are worried about 2,1,4
 

Durango

Enhancer
Mix it up with your play. Subzero is great at turtling. Do as RedRaptor says and use d4 as your primary 'get in' tool. Subzero iirc has the fastest d4 in the game. (or atleast matches the fastest ones). Establish pressure with 2,1 and and 2,1,2 ice clone <- safer than 2,1,4 ice clone. 2,1 throw is also good after conditioning with several 2,1's and 2,1,2's. Try and establish a life lead and then hang back behind your clones and get some ice balls out.

Are you familiar with sub zero bnbs? If you freeze someone far enough to where you can't get a regular bnb combo off use b1,2,1. The string gives massive stun (don't remember the frame data off the top of my head) but it lets you continue pressure with 2,1.

You're coming in late to mk9, the breaking in process is going to be hard, but I encourage you to keep at it.
I've actually been here for two years and this is the first time anyone has ever beaten me down this badly. I've played a ton of matches, beating people first to 3 or first to 5 with high win/loss records, but I've never been picked apart like this.
 

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
I've actually been here for two years and this is the first time anyone has ever beaten me down this badly. I've played a ton of matches, beating people first to 3 or first to 5 with high win/loss records, but I've never been picked apart like this.

Damn, sorry for the implication. I just haven't seen you before. heh. Are you on xbox or ps3 for mk9?
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
I've actually been here for two years and this is the first time anyone has ever beaten me down this badly. I've played a ton of matches, beating people first to 3 or first to 5 with high win/loss records, but I've never been picked apart like this.
There is always somebody better than you. Always. When you find them play them a lot. Get beat by them a lot. It is the only way you will ever improve and beat them. If you beat everyone you ever come up against then you are never truly tested, and thus will never be prepared when you fight someone who is better than you. The only way to continually push yourself to get better is to play people who are better than you. It is humbling at first, but the best thing for you. Pride is your worst enemy. Celebrate when you find someone better than you because those are the players who will force you to become better.
 
Against most of the characters you stated you can just dash block pretty easily to get in. What it sounds like you're trying to do is just completely rush him down though. Outside of d4, Sub Zero has limited options for opening up a character outside of the corner. So when you get close, just be really cautious with your movements. If he is just walking back then walk forward, he's moving right towards the corner. When you get in, just do a little chip damage and back off. D4 and go to a 21 grab mixup or something, if he keeps interrupting you with pokes at certain points then figure out his patterns and bait it with ice clone. You want to make him feel like he can attack and then freeze him with your clone. Then you will have a lot more respect and you can continue with longer blockstrings and use more throws. Also, if they just keep poking then don't be afraid to jump at them. I know that offline people can anti air you a lot but a jump kick gives you a nice amount of damage and is rarely beaten out by an anti air poke or uppercut in my experience. Cyrax and Sektor are tough because they outzone you and can seemingly escape the corner almost for free (MB teleport for Sektor) but outside of those matchups you just have to get near him and either get him to the corner or frustrate him with clone/d4. And keep in mind that some players will just be better than you until you play a lot of games to the point where you have similar experience
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
Against most of the characters you stated you can just dash block pretty easily to get in. What it sounds like you're trying to do is just completely rush him down though. Outside of d4, Sub Zero has limited options for opening up a character outside of the corner. So when you get close, just be really cautious with your movements. If he is just walking back then walk forward, he's moving right towards the corner. When you get in, just do a little chip damage and back off. D4 and go to a 21 grab mixup or something, if he keeps interrupting you with pokes at certain points then figure out his patterns and bait it with ice clone. You want to make him feel like he can attack and then freeze him with your clone. Then you will have a lot more respect and you can continue with longer blockstrings and use more throws. Also, if they just keep poking then don't be afraid to jump at them. I know that offline people can anti air you a lot but a jump kick gives you a nice amount of damage and is rarely beaten out by an anti air poke or uppercut in my experience. Cyrax and Sektor are tough because they outzone you and can seemingly escape the corner almost for free (MB teleport for Sektor) but outside of those matchups you just have to get near him and either get him to the corner or frustrate him with clone/d4. And keep in mind that some players will just be better than you until you play a lot of games to the point where you have similar experience
Impractical Joker makes a good point here. And one I neglected to mention earlier. Get that chip damage! A lot of moves in MK9 are safe on block. Safe but not advantage. Not everything is about getting that full combo punish, while its nice when it comes along, good players will rarely leave themselves that open if they can avoid it. So even if they can block throw out that 2,2,4,clone or 2,1,2 clone or whatever anyway. You get the chip and drop the clone cutting the screen down. Subzeros entire purpose is to lock people up in the corner(For the most part, obviously that isn't going to work on a character like Kung Lao) So getting big damage midscreen isn't an essential part of his game plan (though by all means take it if you can) Your main purpose is moving towards the corner. Who cares if you eat an occasional fireball or hell fire or whatever on the way in. Just keep moving forward and be patient. Also the jump kick thing Joker mentioned is good to. They are much harder to AA than a jump in punch. You don't get a full combo but who cares. You knock them down and away from you closer to the corner. Which is your whole goal. Patience is such a key to playing Subzero. Patience and not being afraid to eat a few fireballs in the face.
 

pherleece

Woolay
you can play me on xbox and i'll let you know what i think you do wrong. you can probably even tell me what i'm doing wrong too