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How to defend against staggers/mix-ups?

Tanya-Fan-28

TanyaShouldBeInMK11
I started practicing in the lab everyday for half hour and set my AI to 4 recordings of the same string just with different mix ups. When practicing against staggers, is the goal to "make the right guess" or "condition myself to commit to a guess, regardless if I'm right or wrong". When in a set I usually play yolo and depend on reaction time against staggers/mix ups, which doesn't always work out. I usually lose to Highborn Kitana, Jax & Liu Kang.
 

Tanya-Fan-28

TanyaShouldBeInMK11
Obviously it is a guess, but you can minimize risk by defending against the most dangerous options first. Then as you get a feel for what your opponent likes to do and see patterns in their offense you can make more educated guesses.
hmmm good advice. I think consideration of the reward the opponent would get if they were to risk a stagger will help me become better at guessing. Its our job to prevent such reward when they do attempt a stagger. I just need to learn how to commit to a guess because it seems like a slot machine on my mind, so I don't settle for any prediction. Then I eat any follow up they throw at me. I'm too reactionary and scared to commit to a guess.
 

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
Personally I like to mix my opponents up right back. I typically curl up in a ball and cry and smash D1, making them guess if they're going to be counter hitting me or hitting me with a Krushing Blow. If I'm feeling froggy I'll enhance my strategy with a D3 to really fuck with them.
 

Rizz091

Noob
hmmm good advice. I think consideration of the reward the opponent would get if they were to risk a stagger will help me become better at guessing. Its our job to prevent such reward when they do attempt a stagger. I just need to learn how to commit to a guess because it seems like a slot machine on my mind, so I don't settle for any prediction. Then I eat any follow up they throw at me. I'm too reactionary and scared to commit to a guess.
Yeah I've def been guilty of trying to react to staggers and I usually get counter hit if they stagger, and throw countered if they throw. So I've decided I gotta just commit to the read lol.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
If you've got a decent mid, commit all out when you read a stagger. If you've got fast, hit confirmable mids, it's a very real advantage to getting out of stagger pressure. Why settle for a poke when you can get a full combo, after all?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
It’s kind of a guess, but I disagree that it’s 100% a read. It’s kind of like a half-read, half-reaction. When you’re expecting it, which is the read part, you can then wait and react to them not finishing the string in a lot of cases.

There are some blockstrings where this isn’t possible, due to having a weird gap in the string (like Jax’s 1+3 enders), but for many of them you can just watch closely and be ready to immediately hit a button or go into a string the moment the don’t commit to finishing theirs.
 

Tanya-Fan-28

TanyaShouldBeInMK11
It’s kind of a guess, but I disagree that it’s 100% a read. It’s kind of like a half-read, half-reaction. When you’re expecting it, which is the read part, you can then wait and react to them not finishing the string in a lot of cases.

There are some blockstrings where this isn’t possible, due to having a weird gap in the string (like Jax’s 1+3 enders), but for many of them you can just watch closely and be ready to immediately hit a button or go into a string the moment the don’t commit to finishing theirs.
Yeah I notice, depending on the character, will have a sneaky recovery animation. I guess that's where the "reactionary" part comes into play.
 

Tanya-Fan-28

TanyaShouldBeInMK11
Personally I like to mix my opponents up right back. I typically curl up in a ball and cry and smash D1, making them guess if they're going to be counter hitting me or hitting me with a Krushing Blow. If I'm feeling froggy I'll enhance my strategy with a D3 to really fuck with them.
D1 is my mindless go-to protocol against staggers lmao. I can't help it, thats all I can think of at the time
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Well, there isn't a clear cut way to do it because nobody does it the same. You have to know the character's stagger options and mixups, you have to know the options they have AND you have to figure out when the opponent uses them. So it's more situational, a bit of knowing universally everyone's staggers and mixups options and just learning on the fly.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
First, Learn the character's moves, when it's your turn and when it isnt.
Second, Look for patterns in the opponent's usage of their character's moves
Third, pure guessing and yolo should be 25% of your strategy, the rest should be educated guesses (or reads) based on the first and second point
 

ryublaze

Noob
First you gotta be looking for the stagger which makes it a whole lot easier to react to and press a button after. It's mostly a read on whether you should press after the stagger or not. But for the most part you're better off blocking and taking the throw because 1. throws don't do much damage and 2. you would've gotten thrown anyways (had they not staggered) since you were blocking in the first place. After a while you'll start to see their tendencies

Thing is if they stagger, they're usually giving up a hit confirm, so then you can start playing more reckless. Eventually they're going to have to not go for staggers and start using their strings
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
Figure out if they like hugging block after strings or mashing.
If they hug block, respond with a throw. If they mash, then throw out your fastest mid or poke or jump (i know but it works in this zero gravity game) when you think they're minus.
Keep a running mental tab on how they're alternating their string staggers. Is the Jax player going 4-44-44(1+3)? They usually have a rhythm to their staggers whether they realize it or not. Speaking from a normal player level not a pro of course.

Sometimes that yolo read is the most rewarding though. Jumping that gap in Liu's F43U3 to win a set with a full combo is nirvana in this game lmao
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Learn the opponents patterns. Do they like to stagger certain strings after certain things? Then you can make the read that they will do that certain thing and be ready to interrupt/flawless block/etc
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
I would also add that you have to be conscious of the options he is most likely to go for.

If a liu Kang player has caught on that you constantly interrupt his F43 pressure with a fast starting string of your own or a D1, then chances are they will probably go for a parry or low fireball the next time they are in that situation.

Keep in mind, people are more likely to modify their patterns when they get punished twice. Going back to Liu Kang's F43, imagine you poke to stop their pressure and you go for a string. However turns out your string is too slow or you can't jail after the poke. The poke-mashing Liu Kang player steals his turn back using an out-of-turn poke & continues his pressure. You're temporary disruption is less likely to result in a behavioral change on their part.
But if you poke and they try to poke you back only to receive a fast mid in the face and eat a 30% combo, then you can be more sure that the next time they do F43, they will likely cancel into a fireball or parry or block as they expect a poke from you.

It's a mix of probabilities, luck, opponent's level of perseverance, inhibition and their own level of knowledge in fundamentals.
 
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Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
I know some of this has been said already, but here's my take on it since @Tanya-Fan-28 and I have played quite a bit. My "unnamed" old trainer that has won a few tourneys in his time broke down how to make reads like this:

Your opponent's
  • intelligence (moderating use of unsafe moves/strings, playing solid neutral, being patient, taking and stealing turns at every opportunity, reaction time)
  • creativity (using moves/strings for different utilities instead of just to open people up, mixups and lack of pattern)
  • execution (confirms, rarely if ever drop combos, punishing most/all including whiffs, anti-airs)
The higher level player, the sharper all three of these will be which can sometimes make it very difficult to make the correct reads consistently. As someone that staggers a LOT with a 9f mid, my advice would be to do everything in your power to not let yourself be conditioned. If you allow this to happen then you're giving them false power over you by allowing them to create the fear of whatever they can do, when instead you should be focusing on how you can retake your turn.

The other part of that is knowing what's safe/unsafe and when to take your turn back if you're going to go for it. For example, recognizing the timing between someone inputting the first part of a string that's actually negative or habitually doing the part of the string that's plus on block. Sometimes there might not even be an actual pattern and you just have to be able to react to these small windows as soon as you realize they aren't continuing a string/cancelling, etc. Another key to that is being able to flicker block while ducking (which I've seen you do Kitanya) so if by chance you don't retake your turn quick enough, they whiff a throw and you have all day to full combo or D2 KB into whatever you want.

It's all about balance because if you're impatient then it's more likely you'll get blown up, but if you linger too long then you end up turtling and take more chip or even the throw. It also helps to know more about the frame data for those MU's you find tougher, especially if you keep getting mixed into a plus frame rush that you're having trouble countering. And with that you can't let yourself overthink, that will just hinder good reaction time. Eventually, instinct can lace with reaction time and especially during longer sets will be a noticeable improvement if you work hard enough at it. Just d1, mashing, or whatever you do also sends signals to the opponent as well. Make sure you send the right ones of "back off" if it's preventing their most rewarding option. You can successfully condition the opponent from even attempting that kind of rushdown or mix as much if the reward has been proving minuscule to them at times.

There's not a certain science to all of this, and like others are saying there is definitely some luck and chance involved. These are just certain measures that you can take and can provide more of an advantage with your game plan. Sometimes you'll "guess wrong" but it doesn't mean anyone should panic and mash every time they do it either.
 

Tanya-Fan-28

TanyaShouldBeInMK11
I know some of this has been said already, but here's my take on it since @Tanya-Fan-28 and I have played quite a bit. My "unnamed" old trainer that has won a few tourneys in his time broke down how to make reads like this:

Your opponent's
  • intelligence (moderating use of unsafe moves/strings, playing solid neutral, being patient, taking and stealing turns at every opportunity, reaction time)
  • creativity (using moves/strings for different utilities instead of just to open people up, mixups and lack of pattern)
  • execution (confirms, rarely if ever drop combos, punishing most/all including whiffs, anti-airs)
The higher level player, the sharper all three of these will be which can sometimes make it very difficult to make the correct reads consistently. As someone that staggers a LOT with a 9f mid, my advice would be to do everything in your power to not let yourself be conditioned. If you allow this to happen then you're giving them false power over you by allowing them to create the fear of whatever they can do, when instead you should be focusing on how you can retake your turn.

The other part of that is knowing what's safe/unsafe and when to take your turn back if you're going to go for it. For example, recognizing the timing between someone inputting the first part of a string that's actually negative or habitually doing the part of the string that's plus on block. Sometimes there might not even be an actual pattern and you just have to be able to react to these small windows as soon as you realize they aren't continuing a string/cancelling, etc. Another key to that is being able to flicker block while ducking (which I've seen you do Kitanya) so if by chance you don't retake your turn quick enough, they whiff a throw and you have all day to full combo or D2 KB into whatever you want.

It's all about balance because if you're impatient then it's more likely you'll get blown up, but if you linger too long then you end up turtling and take more chip or even the throw. It also helps to know more about the frame data for those MU's you find tougher, especially if you keep getting mixed into a plus frame rush that you're having trouble countering. And with that you can't let yourself overthink, that will just hinder good reaction time. Eventually, instinct can lace with reaction time and especially during longer sets will be a noticeable improvement if you work hard enough at it. Just d1, mashing, or whatever you do also sends signals to the opponent as well. Make sure you send the right ones of "back off" if it's preventing their most rewarding option. You can successfully condition the opponent from even attempting that kind of rushdown or mix as much if the reward has been proving minuscule to them at times.

There's not a certain science to all of this, and like others are saying there is definitely some luck and chance involved. These are just certain measures that you can take and can provide more of an advantage with your game plan. Sometimes you'll "guess wrong" but it doesn't mean anyone should panic and mash every time they do it either.
Ah very very informative! I'm pretty bad at going overboard with the "patient" part because I have been turtling in the past but slowly getting past it. Definitely going to keep the balancing playstyles in mind (mashing vs turtling) . Seems like the 3 most important tools for making reads are tips to live by. Thanks for your help! I love 1v1ing you, feel like I take something from it everytime.