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General/Other How the pushblock fix affected Joker

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Let's start by saying how pushblock worked for Joker. 212 into far teeth was something good for Joker in several matchups, it was the reason why he remained competitive in some, even though he lost them.

Bane was widely considered 5-5 to 6-4 because Joker had the ability to be aggressive vs Bane on wakeup, unlike most other characters. A knockdown into far teeth into pushblock if the Bane player woke up worked really well, same with laying down far teeth in the neutral game and pushblocking Bane into them. Now we lose that midscreen respect for teeth and this matchup steps into potential 7-3 territory

Same for Doomsday, he couldn't mindlessly rush in and we had special safejumps vs snatch just go to 212 far teeth, this used to be 4-6, now that we can't pushblock into teeth it's worse.

Lobo was a 5-5 because hook charge was very good to pushblock into teeth, as were d1s and standing teeth. Lobo couldn't wake up due to teeth which let us jump in or pushblock. That's gone now and we lose the matchup because of it.

Flash. As if he couldn't punish everything we had in 55% combos, carry us to the corner and nullify our wakeup game, forcing us to do dangerous jumps with J3, now we can't even lay down teeth and pushblock failed attempts to charge the teeth.

Wonderwoman, Batman etc. I could go on and on. In the corner he had crowbar setups into teeth into earthshake setups that if you pushblock because you can't block them you got launched.

You just gave us multiple worse matchups. Bane has 7-3 potential, teeth no longer function as well to control him, doomsday is probably 7-3 as well, we lost before the pushblock fix, Lobo is definitely a 6-4, flash a 7-3.
 

RIF

Noob
This is exactly why changes that impact more than one character need to be evaluated prior to implementing a hot-fix.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
I must admit, I really do feel bad for you guys. Although I didn't like the Sinestro push block tech, I was willing to endure it and see what became of it. I think a better fix would've been that Sinestro just couldn't trait during push block animation. I am appreciative for the patch because it means NRS is still listening, but I think the inadvertent nerfs to Joker and Lex were uncalled for.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
First thing I thought when I heard about the hot fix was "well there goes the bane match up. They took away parry on charge (which I really didn't care about) and now this". I heard that the next hot fix is going to lock out joker player inputs after the player select screen and instead of "Begin" it will say "FREE" at the beginning of the match. If the push block setups were necessary to any character's viability, it was Joker's. Sorry for the salt, but letting this fester over night has really brought my piss to a boil. Really hoping NRS comes through for the Joker community, but it's hard to be optimistic.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I'm staying positive for now. I have faith that it's an oversight on their part and maybe they simply didn't know how important pushblock tech was to Joker and Lex, and hopefully they will find a way to revert it back.
I mean, LBSH, they clearly haven't handled Joker tremendously well since launch, with many bugs remaining, so I wouldn't put it past them to simply not know.
Furthermore, it is not as if the tech is no longer an option, we just need to switch to going for a safe ambiguous jump at the end, push them to the corner, or try and juggle them to a BGB.
Don't get me wrong, it sucks that we lose the damage, and I've been saying that, but at least the tech still FUNCTIONS.
Like I said, hopefully they see the error in this. I think for the most part, the community does.
 
I wonder if glortor is going to come in this thread now and start to talk about how there are 9-1 matchups everywhere just because of a few characters in the game.
 

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
I wonder if glortor is going to come in this thread now and start to talk about how there are 9-1 matchups everywhere just because of a few characters in the game.
To be fair he did said jade-cage was even because "her keep away was too good"
 
Let's start by saying how pushblock worked for Joker. 212 into far teeth was something good for Joker in several matchups, it was the reason why he remained competitive in some, even though he lost them.

Bane was widely considered 5-5 to 6-4 because Joker had the ability to be aggressive vs Bane on wakeup, unlike most other characters. A knockdown into far teeth into pushblock if the Bane player woke up worked really well, same with laying down far teeth in the neutral game and pushblocking Bane into them. Now we lose that midscreen respect for teeth and this matchup steps into potential 7-3 territory

Same for Doomsday, he couldn't mindlessly rush in and we had special safejumps vs snatch just go to 212 far teeth, this used to be 4-6, now that we can't pushblock into teeth it's worse.

Lobo was a 5-5 because hook charge was very good to pushblock into teeth, as were d1s and standing teeth. Lobo couldn't wake up due to teeth which let us jump in or pushblock. That's gone now and we lose the matchup because of it.

Flash. As if he couldn't punish everything we had in 55% combos, carry us to the corner and nullify our wakeup game, forcing us to do dangerous jumps with J3, now we can't even lay down teeth and pushblock failed attempts to charge the teeth.

Wonderwoman, Batman etc. I could go on and on. In the corner he had crowbar setups into teeth into earthshake setups that if you pushblock because you can't block them you got launched.

You just gave us multiple worse matchups. Bane has 7-3 potential, teeth no longer function as well to control him, doomsday is probably 7-3 as well, we lost before the pushblock fix, Lobo is definitely a 6-4, flash a 7-3.
your corner combo does no damage even if its the opponent that push blocked?
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
your corner combo does no damage even if its the opponent that push blocked?
When the opponent pushblocks (depending on the timing) teeth will not hit them due to invulnerability during the pushblock. If that invulnerability is over by the time the teeth explode, it should still to damage even with the current switch. Brb, I'll test.

Edit: Confirmed, the pushblockER still takes damage if they are past the invulnerability window when the teeth pop.
 
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Rodrigue

Spongerod
I must admit, I really do feel bad for you guys. Although I didn't like the Sinestro push block tech, I was willing to endure it and see what became of it. I think a better fix would've been that Sinestro just couldn't trait during push block animation. I am appreciative for the patch because it means NRS is still listening, but I think the inadvertent nerfs to Joker and Lex were uncalled for.
Difference is that Sinestro still has his vortex potential after the shackles. However, I'm not sure if people are willing to sacrifice 1 bar and 1-2 shots of trait for a 50/50.
On the other hand, Joker players are in deep shit since the only advantage for the teeth set ups was increasing the damage percentage.
The first people I thought about when I read about the hot fix were Qwark and Gilbagz. Gosh I feel bad for you guys but I'm sure you can come up with even better set ups.
Now the question is, @Qwark28 will you still be taking the Joker to EVO this year?
 
Somebody had to be the sacrificial lamb. It was either everybody who had to play against sinestro or everyone who played characters who had push block setups. NRS decided to make the executive decision of making bad characters worse. Your sacrifice has not gone unnoticed.
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
your corner combo does no damage even if its the opponent that push blocked?
I hadn't considered this. @Qwark28 I'm not home to test but can you clarify? With all the knocks against Joker, many still attest to the fact that he can easily take your life bar when he gets you into the corner. Part of this was because Push blocking being an answer/ option wasn't the case necessarily as it is with other characters that have healthy corner pressure. If both forms of push block setups do no damage, unless you can get them into a disadvantageous/ vortex state like hot fix Sinestro, Joker has been castrated worse than we thought. EVO will be coming up soon...
 

Crathen

Death is my business
You still get the damage if the opponent pushblocks , you don't get the damage if you pushblock , simple.

This does affect a lot of Joker defensive gameplan.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Just speculation, but this could be temporary. Back in 2011, NRS toyed with removing Quan's Rune Trap. There was a hotfix that caused the skydrop after trance to actually knockdown instead of reset standing. And then like a week later, it was changed back to reset standing but with less advantage.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I hadn't considered this. @Qwark28 I'm not home to test but can you clarify? With all the knocks against Joker, many still attest to the fact that he can easily take your life bar when he gets you into the corner. Part of this was because Push blocking being an answer/ option wasn't the case necessarily as it is with other characters that have healthy corner pressure. If both forms of push block setups do no damage, unless you can get them into a disadvantageous/ vortex state like hot fix Sinestro, Joker has been castrated worse than we thought. EVO will be coming up soon...
When the opponent pushblocks (depending on the timing) teeth will not hit them due to invulnerability during the pushblock. If that invulnerability is over by the time the teeth explode, it should still to damage even with the current switch. Brb, I'll test.

Edit: Confirmed, the pushblockER still takes damage if they are past the invulnerability window when the teeth pop.