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Question - Takeda How Much would it Hurt Takeda

I get what you're saying. But the reasons the Takeda community is defending this move... it's like if I told you why not just buff Johnny cage's raw shadow kick to -6 on block too with the same recovery frames?

Then I said stuff like:

It only does 8% on hit.

Just neutral duck to punish and don't throw a fireball

Fisticuffs would need that come on, it 's for positioning. Don't hurt fisticuffs.

My friend whiff punishes it sometimes

Johnny cage doesn't even have mixups his f24 is -6 and his 113 is -25

Literally all the excuses in this thread


Before someone says it, yes, I realize that this version of Shadow kick and Takeda's flip aren't the same animation. However this new version of Shadowkick would accomplish the same exact thing as Takeda's flip does now, if both having sliglty different ways to punish them.

The point is space control vs risk. Flip controls too much space while not having enough risk to balance it. Takeda's too dumb and needs to be toned down.
I def don't have the attention span to read to read all that. Caught the last part though. To me I don't really care if they nerf it or not lol as long as its still a hard knockdown then I'm cool with that. I mainly use it in SR to set up hard to blockables
 
Well the best argument I can see against a nerf to it is why really why but whatev I can t discuss anymore nerf it If you wish but then give us a better d1
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
To be fair what you are doing is not what we are talking about though you re punishing it the thing is about whiffing the spin kick
No cause that's not a punish, he can block it. DrPepper was saying that Predator can anti-air any attempt to Tornado kick in if Takeda whiffs one of his shots and then use it. If Takeda is jumping, and if it whiffs a projectile launched at the same time, he gets to come straight in with a Tornado Kick, even on block hes still -6, but that's beside the point - all I posted that video to prove is that even Pred cannot contest a TK afterwards the Takeda player times it correctly. And thats (AFAIK) the projectile with the lowest recovery in the game - its basically a given that TK is going to get you in their face against any zoner without being anti-aired, or it's YOU who mis-played.



When did I say tenses takeda needs a block infinite? The fuck? If you are talking about forever ago with the pseudo block infinite ronin had I said that was fine but he didn't need it, why was it fine? Because it was possible to get out of. It wasn't a true infinite
It was block pressure that could only be stopped by armoring out, and your argument defending it was "if you get caught blocking without a bar anywhere on screen against Takeda, you deserve to lose the game". Seriously bro. You permantly shot any credibility you have when it comes to Takeda, or what good game design is concerning him.


and with tornado kick. So let me get this straight, if I read you correctly and very in via tornado kick. And get what, 9% off of it, how is that worse than teleports? Which can hit you MUCH harder, and the risk for me is greater.
Yeah, because -6 is SO much riskier than -24. You know Scorps only gets 5% off his TP as well right? If we are talking meterburn, Takeda gets a combo off his as well when MB :S this is a terrible analogy that just destroys your own immensely biased agenda of an argument


zoning isn't about just seeing how many projectiles you can put on screen, it is about reading and predicting the opponent
Thats the entire point here. It's not about just belting out projectiles - if you literally throw one projectile, Takeda gets straight in. Doesnt time in correctly? It's all good, -6 on block, still safe. Oh, completely fucks up the timing and range? Still safe on whiff. It's the definition of braindead and completely ruins some match ups.

If I jump, chances are I tornado kick, if I do tornado kick off the ground straight laser will hit me, HOW can you up play this move so much?
I mean, there is a video in the post you responded to LITERALLY proving that this is wrong. If you jump at the same time he lasers, you are in. That's all it takes. You are safe on everything, he can't contest with a normal, he can't block and punish, he can't whiff punish it if you fuck up, if he backdashes he is minus, there is no option other than armor. And that is to get past the fastest recovering projectile in the game. Sorry, but there is no risk/reward there. Its braindead and if you think you need it to play MKX, it's YOU who needs to level up buddy.

You understand a move can be used in different ways right? I'm not saying it's broken using it in the neutral, you keep running back to all the times you get punished for doing this, as your excuse for it being terrible design in the COUNTER ZONING mu's. If you are getting punished on this move all the time you are obviously not talking about the way I'm talking about using it or you are just fucking terrible at using it lol, as the video shows, the only way to punish it if timed right is through armor, I mean this point is kinda not debatable, are you just going to pretend that video up there doesn't exist? It simply isn't good design. Jumping at the same time a projectile is launched, shouldn't = you get all the way in safely from fullscreen meterless, this completely ruins zoning. And INB4 "it's completely fair because it's armorable you should manage just your meter" like you said about the block infinite ~_~

If I fuck up, it is on me, so why is it that when you fuck up, it is on the move?
Thats the point, it's not a fuck-up. If you are FULLSCREEN against a zoner the advantage should be theirs until you work your way back in, the trades offs that zoners make up close and personal means they need to have some screen control here and freedom to at least have one projectile jumped or ducked, like the rest of the cast they get to run forward and then advance, but you don't get to cover the whole screen for free. This is what everyone complains about with Kenshi, whiff one Teleflurry and your opponent is in. That's every single zoner in the game vs Takeda. The Tornado Kick can remain safe on block, no-one is contesting this, just that on WHIFF, like if you really get outplayed, it should have a punish window, it shouldn't just be "get me in for free" regardless of situation.
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
This turned out to be alot more than I thought it would.

I didn't think it was that big of a deal to takeda players. I guess it is more important to them than they realize.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
No cause that's not a punish, he can block it. DrPepper was saying that Predator can anti-air any attempt to Tornado kick in if Takeda whiffs one of his shots and then use it. If Takeda is jumping, and if it whiffs a projectile launched at the same time, he gets to come straight in with a Tornado Kick, even on block hes still -6, but that's beside the point - all I posted that video to prove is that even Pred cannot contest a TK afterwards the Takeda player times it correctly. And thats (AFAIK) the projectile with the lowest recovery in the game - its basically a given that TK is going to get you in their face against any zoner without being anti-aired, or it's YOU who mis-played.




It was block pressure that could only be stopped by armoring out, and your argument defending it was "if you get caught blocking without a bar anywhere on screen against Takeda, you deserve to lose the game". Seriously bro. You permantly shot any credibility you have when it comes to Takeda, or what good game design is concerning him.



Yeah, because -6 is SO much riskier than -24. You know Scorps only gets 5% off his TP as well right? If we are talking meterburn, Takeda gets a combo off his as well when MB :S this is a terrible analogy that just destroys your own immensely biased agenda of an argument



Thats the entire point here. It's not about just belting out projectiles - if you literally throw one projectile, Takeda gets straight in. Doesnt time in correctly? It's all good, -6 on block, still safe. Oh, completely fucks up the timing and range? Still safe on whiff. It's the definition of braindead and completely ruins some match ups.


I mean, there is a video in the post you responded to LITERALLY proving that this is wrong. If you jump at the same time he lasers, you are in. That's all it takes. You are safe on everything, he can't contest with a normal, he can't block and punish, he can't whiff punish it if you fuck up, if he backdashes he is minus, there is no option other than armor. And that is to get past the fastest recovering projectile in the game. Sorry, but there is no risk/reward there. Its braindead and if you think you need it to play MKX, it's YOU who needs to level up buddy.

You understand a move can be used in different ways right? I'm not saying it's broken using it in the neutral, you keep running back to all the times you get punished for doing this, as your excuse for it being terrible design in the COUNTER ZONING mu's. If you are getting punished on this move all the time you are obviously not talking about the way I'm talking about using it or you are just fucking terrible at using it lol, as the video shows, the only way to punish it if timed right is through armor, I mean this point is kinda not debatable, are you just going to pretend that video up there doesn't exist? It simply isn't good design. Jumping at the same time a projectile is launched, shouldn't = you get all the way in safely from fullscreen meterless, this completely ruins zoning. And INB4 "it's completely fair because it's armorable you should manage just your meter" like you said about the block infinite ~_~


Thats the point, it's not a fuck-up. If you are FULLSCREEN against a zoner the advantage should be theirs until you work your way back in, the trades offs that zoners make up close and personal means they need to have some screen control here and freedom to at least have one projectile jumped or ducked, like the rest of the cast they get to run forward and then advance, but you don't get to cover the whole screen for free. This is what everyone complains about with Kenshi, whiff one Teleflurry and your opponent is in. That's every single zoner in the game vs Takeda. The Tornado Kick can remain safe on block, no-one is contesting this, just that on WHIFF, like if you really get outplayed, it should have a punish window, it shouldn't just be "get me in for free" regardless of situation.
So you're credibility for everything you said went out the window because you are apparently arguing with someone that doesn't know what they are talking about, if you hate me that much and want to discredit me, fucking block me, I don't care, I still stand by my opinion that the pseudo unblockable was fine but it wouldn't matter if it was was nerfed which it was, because you could poke out of it, and you could armor, pseudo infinite is just another word for really good pressure, I never played ronin, I just knew how to get around it. I had no trouble with it, and I played fucking balance kenshi. One of the characters that had a harder time with the so called "block infinite" also one video doesn't disprove a damn thing I said, because it is one video, the person fucked up, since I have gotten anti aired by up laser and straight laser multiple times. Whatever I'm done. I don't want to deal with this shit, since you clearly wasn't me off this site and have such a huge problem with me, I'll leave, are, you, happy? It's not like I just wanted to provide ways around it, its not like I was telling you EXACTLY how to counter it. Whatever, its fine. The community needs more needless bitching instead of finding ways around strategies. That was my entire point in the ronin thread, was instead of bitching and moaning, to try and find ways around stuff. Bitching gets you NOWHERE, especially in a game in which the meta hasn't fully developed. Don't bother responding, you might as well block me. I'm fucking done with this site.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I still stand by my opinion that the pseudo unblockable was fine but it wouldn't matter if it was was nerfed which it was, because you could poke out of it, and you could armor, pseudo infinite is just another word for really good pressure. I never played ronin, I just knew how to get around it.
The point is you couldn't poke out of the infinite, so you spent all that time arguing to defend it and you didn't even bother to learn how it worked? lol

I had no trouble with it, and I played fucking balance kenshi. One of the characters that had a harder time with the so called "block infinite"
You also play Takeda so that invalidates that argument, and part of your argument defending that block infinite was that if anything was changed it should be that Kenshi, Kitana, and Erron Black should all get buffs to deal with it.

~_~

seriously.

also one video doesn't disprove a damn thing I said, because it is one video, the person fucked up, since I have gotten anti aired by up laser and straight laser multiple times.
No you troll, you clearly didn't even watch the damn video its not a match replay LOL

It's a video of Predator recorded to straight laser immediately followed by high laser. It shows that if you jump at the same time as he Straight Laser's, a properly timed Tornado Kick cannot be contested by an upshot or a normal. It undeniably proves this, and you getting anti-aired by lasers disproves absolutely nothing haha


since you clearly wasn't me off this site and have such a huge problem with me, I'll leave, are, you, happy?
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
The difference between Takedas counterzoning compared to others is that it's meterless and safe. The trade off is the start up, so for most match ups it will be fine, however against zoners he can slice most of the start up off by whiffing a projectile.

Compare it to things like Reptile Slide, Scorps Teleport, etc. They are all super unsafe, and in most cases need meter to be worth the risk, with some exceptions. Takeda's however is both meterless and safe, on block, and even on whiff. Playing against a character like DVorah or Jax, that's fine. Playing against a zoner however and it really serves to highlight some of the design issues present in MKX. I really don't think this change would hurt the character that much, I think Takeda players are kinda just in here gripping on as tightly as they can to everything they got. I would fully support buffing something else of his to make up for it, the character isn't OP, I just think this is really poor design that ruins the only way certain other characters can play the game.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
The point is you couldn't poke out of the infinite, so you spent all that time arguing to defend it and you didn't even bother to learn how it worked? lol


You also play Takeda so that invalidates that argument, and part of your argument defending that block infinite was that Kenshi, Kitana, and Erron Black should all get buffs to deal with it.

~_~

seriously.


No you troll, you clearly didn't even watch the damn video its not a match replay LOL

It's a video of Predator recorded to straight laser immediately followed by high laser. It shows that if you jump at the same time as he Straight Laser's, a properly Tornado Kick cannot be contested by an upshot or a normal. It undeniably proves this, and you getting anti-aired by lasers disproves absolutely nothing haha



Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out
Cool, fuck differences of opinion, you fucking asshole. Bye
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
tornado kick on whiff is a gimmick and should be punished

it's a dumb move however basically a free gap closer in a lot of situations
When you get a console back, would you mind making a video on how to get around this? Assuming it stays the same after the patch of course.

Or is my only option to back up after it?