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How about fixing the REVERSAL / COUNTER ABILITIES...?

For someone who gravitates towards characters who embody strong defensive mechanics (examples: Geese, Gouken, Kolin, Asuka...), it irks me no end to witness the consistently lazy implementation of the associated mechanics in NRS games.

In MKX, Kitana's "fan reversal" was so laughably coded, that the opponent could literally hit her in her [once] finely-formed BUTT, and she'd still get the counter! In MK11, Johnny's "Mime" counter is not only ridiculously animated (it activates no matter which way he's miming / facing), but it also lacks consistent mechanical properties: works against Shao Kahn's jumping hammer special; does NOT work against jump-in attacks -- despite both registering as "OVERHEADS"! :confused:

The "Mime" even looks stupid when it works somewhat consistently -- for example: used against Kahn's stepping front-kick, it lacks the animations to turn the reversal into the arm-break animation (from the kick that it's initiated), and instead just 'blinks' jarringly from one sequence to the other... Which looks awfully amateurish, and makes me question whether or not these moves were properly tested, or even seen by the core fighting game devs before the game was released (!)

For games that have such high production values and realistic animations (*the "stiff animations" arguments notwithstanding), the way counter abilities are designed by NRS -- in both their animations and how they function -- stick out like a severed thumb and, even on their own, go some way to undermining the look and gameplay of their products.

So, WHY CAN'T NRS PROPERLY IMPLEMENT REVERSAL / COUNTER ATTACK SPECIAL ABILITIES IN THEIR FIGHTING GAMES?
 

Misky

Rawr
it lacks consistent mechanical properties: works against Shao Kahn's jumping hammer special; does NOT work against jump-in attacks -- despite both registering as "OVERHEADS"! :confused:
One is a special move, one is a jump in attack. Just because they're both overheads doesn't mean they do or should both be parried. Both are very different types of moves. You'll find this to be the case with every special or jump in attack in the game, it's consistent, not bad coding.

I agree with you on the animations though. I'm indifferent to them working on either side.
 
^ I think you missed my between-the-lines points:
  • IT LOOKS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS (...and these were just a couple of examples I used for the sake of the topic -- there are many more in the same vein)
  • NEITHER EXAMPLED OVERHEAD ATTACK SHOULD BE PARRIED BY AN ABILITY WITH AN ANIMATION THAT IS CYCLICALLY ALTERNATING LEFT-TO-RIGHT AND CLEARLY LOOKS TO PARRY ONLY STANDING HIGH ATTACKS
  • IN A GAME WITH WARNER BROTHERS CLOUT BEHIND IT, LAZY ANIMATIONS (AND CODING / MECHANICAL PROPERTIES) ARE UNACCEPTABLE
  • IT'S A CONTINUAL PROBLEM THAT SEEMS TO PLAGUE NRS GAMES ([conspiracy theory] because their games are all mostly just asset flips with minor gameplay tweaks, plus a coat of graphical paint to fool the kiddies? [/conspiracy theory])
  • IF THEY'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING, THEY SHOULD DO IT RIGHT OR NOT DO IT AT ALL.
Disclaimer: For those how don't care, I'm not trying to change your mind. I (and others I can attest to) find this aspect of NRS games wholly lacking in polish, and even fundamental logic in implementation. Indeed, those who don't use characters who sport these abilities (which accounts for the majority of players, from what I've seen -- causal and pro -- and I have a theory on why this is...), I appreciate that you would either not even notice some of the gripes I've cited, find them persnickety, or not care if you are indeed aware of them.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Imagine my surprise when I discovered the Parry glitch in MK9. First discovered it with Liu Kang, then after telling REO we worked it out that every character with a parry had the glitch. It’s crazy because it got patched pretty quickly so most either didn’t know about it or it has been forgotten. Definitely my biggest contribution to MK9, lol.

Parries in NRS games are just really weird in general. Like as you said, why can’t Johnny Cage’s mime parry work against jump ins? They are just inconsistent in my experience, and have been since MK9. At least they are better implemented in MK11 than they have been. I assume all the inconsistencies and bugs like mids whiffing will get patched out, so we’ll see.
 
NRS either need to up their parry design game to Geese / Gouken level (low, mid, high), and provide the required animations therewith, or do what 90% of my online opponents do:

 

DeftMonk

Noob
Parry are not anti-airs
They aren't tied to air attacks, they can only stop normals and certain specials that are not projectiles that are not lows, otherwise, jump attacks and lows beat parries.
I was just about to post this. Dunno what crack homie has been smoking... thank god game design for the most part is based on things like balance rather than “which direction the animation is facing what you go to parry” or some similar crap.
 

DragonofDadashov24

Let’s see whose fire burns hotter
Parries always worked against overheads. They can be countered by lows, jump ins ans specials, but not all of them.
I’ve already covered this: you can parry Kano ball with Liu Kang but can’t parry Scorp’s teleport , both are mid
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Parries always worked against overheads. They can be countered by lows, jump ins ans specials, but not all of them.
I’ve already covered this: you can parry Kano ball with Liu Kang but can’t parry Scorp’s teleport , both are mid
you can actually parry Scorpion's tele if your character can auto-face when he teleports, the only character i know that is capable of doing this is Skarlet because she turns when he teleports
 

DragonofDadashov24

Let’s see whose fire burns hotter
you can actually parry Scorpion's tele if your character can auto-face when he teleports, the only character i know that is capable of doing this is Skarlet because she turns when he teleports
I was talking about Liu Kang. It’s funny cause he can parry Jade’s amp kick which works like a teleport
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
If you say so... But, then what's the point of the "low, high, mid" designations, if they don't actually mean anything? --
this is not tekken, this is mortal Kombat

Low beat high blocking
Mid beats crouch not blocking
oveheard beats crouch blocking/crouch


Parry has nothing to do with what you want to work with, parry lose to jump attacks.

Special moves do not have jump proprieties per say, they might leap in the air but they are not true jump attacks.
 
this is not tekken, this is mortal Kombat
Low beat high blocking
Mid beats crouch not blocking
oveheard beats crouch blocking/crouch
Well, Tekken is a poor example to prove a counter-point: Geese's HIGH auto-counter does NOT work against JUMP-IN ATTACKS -- it's his MID that counters them...(!)

Also, if "this is Mortal Kombat", and "mids beat crouch not blocking", why did Jason's forward-4 in MKX beat all crouches, blocking or not (*it registers as an "overhead", despite clearly kicking the target in the midriff), while the asset flips of said kicks in MK11 (Shao, Kotal etc.), are blockable at any height?

I think you miss the part where i said earlier that Parry lose to Lows and Jump attacks.
Its an universal thing, every single parry in this game will lose under these conditions.
But, how can it be a "Jump attack" if it registers as a "MID" (*if it connects at the peak of the jump and Johnny is in the Mime animation)...? What is the frame of reference for the height displayed / cited? MK is not some organic fighting game, where attacks LAND are what designate their heights -- it's a stilted, canned, string-based fighter that should have consistent height designations in-keeping with the logic of the gameplay mechanics it purports to proffer.

It seems you're essentially trying to explain away (apologise for?) the post-animation random height property assignments made by NRS -- done in a likely rush to get their game/s vaguely balanced before release; and with a middle finger rigidly raised to both animation any mechanical logic.

I don't see how anyone could reasonable argue that the exhibits of evidence (viz. provided images) as anything but damning examples of the half-assed approach to character ability design that NRS are infamous for; which form the basis for why so many unique oddities exist in their fighting games...

Japan discovers the 'magic' of MK9
 

Elias6999

Mournful Master
I also think parries dont work against Scorp’s tele, tried baiting one with a parry and still got hit. Can anyone confirm?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Well, Tekken is a poor example to prove a counter-point: Geese's HIGH auto-counter does NOT work against JUMP-IN ATTACKS -- it's his MID that counters them...(!)

Also, if "this is Mortal Kombat", and "mids beat crouch not blocking", why did Jason's forward-4 in MKX beat all crouches, blocking or not (*it registers as an "overhead", despite clearly kicking the target in the midriff), while the asset flips of said kicks in MK11 (Shao, Kotal etc.), are blockable at any height?


But, how can it be a "Jump attack" if it registers as a "MID" (*if it connects at the peak of the jump and Johnny is in the Mime animation)...? What is the frame of reference for the height displayed / cited? MK is not some organic fighting game, where attacks LAND are what designate their heights -- it's a stilted, canned, string-based fighter that should have consistent height designations in-keeping with the logic of the gameplay mechanics it purports to proffer.

It seems you're essentially trying to explain away (apologise for?) the post-animation random height property assignments made by NRS -- done in a likely rush to get their game/s vaguely balanced before release; and with a middle finger rigidly raised to both animation any mechanical logic.

I don't see how anyone could reasonable argue that the exhibits of evidence (viz. provided images) as anything but damning examples of the half-assed approach to character ability design that NRS are infamous for; which form the basis for why so many unique oddities exist in their fighting games...

Japan discovers the 'magic' of MK9
you are completely focusing on hit proprieties too much, allow me to clarify:
Jump attacks defeat parries, it doesn't matter if hits overhead, or mids, as long as they are in the air, parries will lose.

If a character is not in the air, the only way to beat certain parries its with a low attack if you don't want to jump on them.

You are just too blind to see and you don't know what an overhead seems to be
Overheads are meant to be blocked standing if you neutral crouch or block overheads defeat those purposes.
Guarding its a very basic concept if you want to understand how parries, work, so please take a look at this video
 

DeftMonk

Noob
The only reason jumping attacks sometimes register as an overhead is to show you that on the way down they have different properties than on the way up. Many 2d fighters use this mechanic to prevent super cheese like crouching low kick to insta jump punch for getting the last 2% off of someone's health bar. Jumping attacks have different properties than standing in many ways.
 

Auron

Noob
Well, Tekken is a poor example to prove a counter-point: Geese's HIGH auto-counter does NOT work against JUMP-IN ATTACKS -- it's his MID that counters them...(!)

Also, if "this is Mortal Kombat", and "mids beat crouch not blocking", why did Jason's forward-4 in MKX beat all crouches, blocking or not (*it registers as an "overhead", despite clearly kicking the target in the midriff), while the asset flips of said kicks in MK11 (Shao, Kotal etc.), are blockable at any height?


But, how can it be a "Jump attack" if it registers as a "MID" (*if it connects at the peak of the jump and Johnny is in the Mime animation)...? What is the frame of reference for the height displayed / cited? MK is not some organic fighting game, where attacks LAND are what designate their heights -- it's a stilted, canned, string-based fighter that should have consistent height designations in-keeping with the logic of the gameplay mechanics it purports to proffer.

It seems you're essentially trying to explain away (apologise for?) the post-animation random height property assignments made by NRS -- done in a likely rush to get their game/s vaguely balanced before release; and with a middle finger rigidly raised to both animation any mechanical logic.

I don't see how anyone could reasonable argue that the exhibits of evidence (viz. provided images) as anything but damning examples of the half-assed approach to character ability design that NRS are infamous for; which form the basis for why so many unique oddities exist in their fighting games...

Japan discovers the 'magic' of MK9
Different games are different and their mechanics will work, wait for it, differently. More at 11.

"it registers as an "overhead", despite clearly kicking the target in the midriff"

If an attack's an overhead it's an overhead, you're obviously putting way too much stock in what you see instead of the frame data. Tekken has a bunch of attacks that look like mids and are lows. Marduk's qcf2, Lei's fc df21 and Lei's backturned d1 are some I can name without thinking.

Japanese games have shit netcode and can be nitpicked by shallow bullshit analysis of unimportant minutia all day too, if you like them so much though go play 'em.
 
You are just too blind to see and you don't know what an overhead seems to be
Well, someone sure is...



Disclaimer: For those how don't care, I'm not trying to change your mind. I (and others I can attest to) find this aspect of NRS games wholly lacking in polish, and even fundamental logic in implementation. Indeed, those who don't use characters who sport these abilities (which accounts for the majority of players, from what I've seen -- causal and pro -- and I have a theory on why this is...), I appreciate that you would either not even notice some of the gripes I've cited, find them persnickety, or not care if you are indeed aware of them.
 

stokedAF

Noob
I don’t care about any of that when I remember how far they have come with animations. They did a great job and the “but he isn’t facing you” seems nitpicky to me. I think it’s pretty great and a good way to incorporate ninja mime into his move set.