Health and Defense. Huh?

[The Janitor]

Life is about to get complicated for commentators and combo thread monsters, here's why:

From what I understand, in competitive mode, both health and damage have different values. Meaning although someone has high health, low defense means scaling on them is lower so the take higher damage anyway. So for someone like Darkseid, high health effectively becomes an empty number.

It also complicates an already unorthodox damage value system, because 400 damage on one person isn't the same as on another, so how exactly do you define a given combo? BnB's will effectively have different damage values based on match ups, which I feel is an unnecessary complexity to add to the meta.

If you want a character to have a glass jaw, give him low health IMO. that way we know where they stand without whipping out a calculator to figure this out. EGP Wonderchef did a great job giving us the damage formula on Twitter, but this feels like a wheel that didn't need reinventing.

Maybe I'm missing something or don't have all the facts yet. Frankly I'm too confused to tell. Tell me what you guys think, or if and how this damage system will work going forward, both for players and spectators.

Edit: HEALTH AND DEFENSE ARE 2 DIFFERENT VALUES. I'm not against differing health values, my concern is how defense stats then prompt you to have to do other calculation not immediately available to less savvy spectators. I think defense stat gives a too many cooks in the kitchen feel.


@EGP Wonder_Chef @PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard @REO @SonicFox5000 @JagoBlakeFGC

 

[kabelfritz]

a bit of extra complexity wont harm the game but help its lifespan

 

[The Janitor]

a bit of extra complexity wont harm the game but help its lifespan

Imagine this scenario: You're a casual who's gotten into I2 and starts watching tournaments for the 1st time. You see a character like Darkseid, who's health has 1400 clearly overlayed on it, but commentators tell you he's one of the softer characters in the game. That just causes confusion that'll put off casual fans, who we need to make this scene grow and put food on tables.

And say you've learnt a 2 bar death combo setup you want to try in a huge tournament to make top 8. If you've never played or labbed that specific situation you're essentially flipping a coin whether that combo will kill. Can you see how hesitation might naturally strike for someone in such a clutch situation. Unnecessary pressure on players as well.

Even as someone doing homework on a match up. Say I pull a combo thread to research a character I'm having a tough time with, if I don't see the combo, on my character specifically, I now have to learn the combo my damn self to actually know the risk reward of certain situations.

These are complication are probably scratching the surface of what this means. I definitely get it, complexities make them more challenging and interesting, but there are ways to do it that don't complicate it at the same time IMO.

 

[Speedsterr]

The combo % don't really bother me much.

I actually really like the idea of different health.
NRS has a history of trillion balance patches.
This time around if they feel like a character has a slightliy better toolset than others, perhaps they won't overnerf the specials but rather lower the characters life instead so that you can make it count when you hit it.

 

[Eddy Wang]

It was about time they did this, i mean the different health values, don't really care much about how damage notation its shown.

 

[The Janitor]

The combo % don't really bother me much.

I actually really like the idea of different health.
NRS has a history of trillion balance patches.
This time around if they feel like a character has a slightliy better toolset than others, perhaps they won't overnerf the specials but rather lower the characters life instead so that you can make it count when you hit it.

Health values are fine. But defense number actual changes total damage off a combo depending on the character. e.g. a 350 damage BnB on Scarecrow becomes 300 on Grodd, but on the health bar they may both have 1250 health value. At least from what I'm getting.

 

[cyke_out]

Almost every other fighting game has different properties for every character. Different health and stun bars in capcom games. In 3d fighters, characters fall differently in juggles which affects combo damage; in VF doing a combo on fatass taka is very different from doing it on pai

 

[SneakyTortoise]

It seems completely fine in my opinion, and extra depth is always welcome. You'll get used to it.

It won't turn away casuals, in fact, it'll probably do the opposite. They'll love grinding like shit for gear to boost their different stat values.

People will still know what their optimal combos are, and people will become familiar with how much their combos do to each character. And from what I've seen, we're talking about a 4% difference across the cast, that's not a big deal.

 

[The Janitor]

It seems completely fine in my opinion, and extra depth is always welcome. You'll get used to it.

It won't turn away casuals, in fact, it'll probably do the opposite. They'll love grinding like shit for gear to boost their different stat values.

People will still know what their optimal combos are, and people will become familiar with how much their combos do to each character. And from what I've seen, we're talking about a 4% difference across the cast, that's not a big deal.

I guess it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind. Let's hope we have a good combo damage notations and great sources of info for all of it.

P.S You're a scrub. It's not a TYM post unless I insult your gaming skills without ever fighting you a day in my life.

 

[Eddy Wang]

remember that Capcom balances Akuma through his health?

 

[AeWhole]

Imagine this scenario: You're a casual who's gotten into I2 and starts watching tournaments for the 1st time. You see a character like Darkseid, who's health has 1400 clearly overlayed on it, but commentators tell you he's one of the softer characters in the game. That just causes confusion that'll put off casual fans, who we need to make this scene grow and put food on tables.

And say you've learnt a 2 bar death combo setup you want to try in a huge tournament to make top 8. If you've never played or labbed that specific situation you're essentially flipping a coin whether that combo will kill. Can you see how hesitation might naturally strike for someone in such a clutch situation. Unnecessary pressure on players as well.

Even as someone doing homework on a match up. Say I pull a combo thread to research a character I'm having a tough time with, if I don't see the combo, on my character specifically, I now have to learn the combo my damn self to actually know the risk reward of certain situations.

These are complication are probably scratching the surface of what this means. I definitely get it, complexities make them more challenging and interesting, but there are ways to do it that don't complicate it at the same time IMO.

You assume people who are watching tournaments or watching this game casually have interest in this game. Also most casual players push buttons and play with friends. They don't care about the number value system at all. Also people who don't want to bother learning something that might add subtle nuance to a game weren't going to play this game very long anyways if at all.

 

[KidVanDal]

Health values are fine. But defense number actual changes total damage off a combo depending on the character. e.g. a 350 damage BnB on Scarecrow becomes 300 on Grodd, but on the health bar they may both have 1250 health value. At least from what I'm getting.

So apparently this isn't true. Don't remember who found it but a 25% combo will do 25% on everyone.
If they both have 1250 the combo will do 350 on both.
A combo that does 400 on a 1000 char will do 440 on 1100 char.

 

[KidVanDal]

https://twitter.com/mikemetroid/status/863824635451854849

Here's @Mikemetroid s tweet about it..

 

[Baconlord]

P.S You're a scrub. It's not a TYM post unless I insult your gaming skills without ever fighting you a day in my life.

What was the point of this?